the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

culaavuso wrote:
SN 22.57: Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote: And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness.
So presumably "escape from consciousness" here means the cessation of clinging?
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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Spiny Norman wrote:
culaavuso wrote:
SN 22.57: Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote: The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness.
So presumably "escape from consciousness" here means the cessation of clinging?
:thumbsup:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Now I am wondering if the problem is that the word "consciousness" is being translated with the wrong denotation. Consider the following:
The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Your search located 72 occurrence(s) of Consciousness in the entire dictionary.
Click here for a display with more context.

Occurrences 1-72:

Attan :-- perception, self-- consciousness (opp. para˚) D iii.231;
Anupubba :e cessation of all consciousness. These are 9 stages, cons
Abhicetasika :n the clearest consciousness. On the spelling see ābh
Abhisañcet...:] to bring to consciousness, think out, devise, plan
Aviññā...:ut feeling or consciousness, unfeeling DhA i.6 (savi
Ākāsa :nbounded space. The consciousness of this sphere forms the
Ādīnava : iv.8 sq.-- saññā consciousness of danger D i.7); iii.253
Āpātha :, focus, field (of consciousness or perception; cp. Dhs tr
Ārammaṇa :t of thought or consciousness, the outward constituent
Āloka :ht J vi 459.-- saññā consciousness or faculty of sight or pe
Āhāra :f.), (4) viññāṇ˚ of consciousness. Thus at M i.261; D iii.2
Uppāda :123 (citt˚ state of consciousness); iv.65 (id.); Dh 182, 19
Okkamati : the question ʻ if consciousness were not to develop in th
Kasiṇa :ection (or perhaps consciousness) M ii.14; D iii.268, 290;
Kāya :s saviññāṇaka, having consciousness A iv.53= S ii.252=S iii.8
Kāya :dhd 69, 70;-- viññāṇa consciousness by means of touch, sensor
Kāya :ans of touch, sensory consciousness D iii.243; Dhs 556, 585,
Kāya :tu element of touch-- consciousness Dhs 560; Vbh 88; Kvu 12;-
Kusala : virtue, merit, good consciousness (citta omitted; cp. DhsA
Khandha :rā (coefficients of consciousness), viññāṇa (conscious
Khandha :iousness), viññāṇa (consciousness). For further ref. see r
Khandha :a of discriminative consciousness) in Def. of manas: manind
Cakkhu :e Nd2 177;-- viññāṇa consciousness by means of visual percep
Citta : the viññāṇakkhandha (consciousness), (b) the other 3 mental
Cinteti & c...:feeling), the consciousness S iv.68. Its seat is freq
Cetasika :with citta as bare consciousness, practically superseded i
Divā :1241; Sn 679;-- saññā consciousness by day, daily c. D iii.22
Dukkha :(kamma);-- saññā the consciousness of pain Nett 27;-- samuda
Dhātu : elements in sense-- consciousness: referring to the 6 ajjha
Nānatta : 263, 282;-- saññā consciousness of diversity (Rh. D.:"ide
Nānatta :i.119; Mrs. Rh. D."consciousness of the manifold") M i.3;
Nānatta :n having a varying consciousness (cp. ˚kāya), D i.31 (cp
Nicca :ā (& adj. saññin) the consciousness or idea of permanence (ad
Nirodha :ilation (of senses, consciousness, feeling & being in gener
Nirodha :saññā perception or consciousness of annihilation D iii.251
Pakati :a ordinary or normal consciousness Kvu 615 (cp. Kvu trsl. 35
Paṭikkūla :ñā (āhāre) the consciousness of the impurity of materi
Paṭiccasa...:ng substance (consciousness, Cpd.; cognition Mrs. Rh.
Paṭhavī :2.-- saññā earth consciousness M. ii.105; A iv.312; v.7
Pariññāta : with bhāvita: consciousness is to be well studied, in
Bhava :ess, i. e. subliminal consciousness or subconscious life-- co
Bhūmi :age, level; state of consciousness, Vin. i.17; Vbh 322 sq.;
Madhuraka :ndition of losing consciousness through intoxication. Rh.
Mano & Mana...:unctioning of consciousness, while viñnāṇa repres
Mano & Mana...:ive aspect of consciousness (cp. Mrs. Rh. D. Buddhist
Mano & Mana...: threshold of consciousness VbhA 41; DhsA 425, cp. Dh
Viññāṇa : life, general consciousness (as function of mind and
Viññāṇa :D. (K.S. ii.4)"consciousness"; Geiger (in Z. f. B. iv.
Viññāṇa :, or"endowment consciousness," viz. the individual tra
Viññāṇa :jhāna.-- āhāra consciousness (i. e. vital principle) s
Viññāṇa :inging them to consciousness in any kind of life-- app
Viññāṇa :("standing for consciousness" &"platform," ˚patiṭ
Viññāṇa :sln"station of consciousness"), 282; =A iv.39. Both th
Vipariyesa :r of perception, consciousness & views, cp. Kvu trsln 17
Visaññin :one who has lost consciousness; also in meaning"of unsou
Sankhāra :: coefficient (of consciousness as well as of physical li
Sankhāra :end to come, into consciousness at the uprising of a citt
Sankhāra :nergies (is vital consciousness), the second linkage in t
Sangaha : e. constitution of consciousness, phase Miln 40.-- 4. rece
Saññā :M i.108) 1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the th
Saññā :l qualities).-- 3. consciousness D i.180 sq.; M i.108; Vbh
Saññā :-- nâsaññā neither consciousness nor unconsciousness D iii
Saññā :rodha cessation of consciousness and sensation M i.160, 30
Saññā : viratta free from consciousness, an Arahant, Sn 847.-- vi
Saññā : emancipation from consciousness Sn 1071 sq.; Miln 159=Vin
Sati :] memory, recognition, consciousness, D i.180; ii.292; Miln 77
Sati :on, conscience, self-- consciousness D i.19; iii.31, 49, 213,
Santati :itta˚ continuity of consciousness Kvu 458; cp. Cpd. 6, 1531
Santāna :tta˚ continuity of consciousness Cpd. 1677. Santānaka San
Samāpatti : the infinity of consciousness, realm of nothingness, re
Samāpatti :realm of neither consciousness nor unconsciousness Ps i.
Saviññā...: possessed of consciousness, conscious, animate A i.8
Compare the above search for "consciousness" to the results of a search for "awareness":
Occurrences 1-2:

Occurrences 1-2:

1. Cinteti & ceteti : (page 269)
is never expld by cet & therefore appears to be the more frequent & familiar form. Meaning: (a) (intr.) to think, to reflect, to be of opinion, Grouped with (phuṭṭho) vedeti, ceteti, sañjānāti he has the feeling, the awareness (of the feeling), the consciousness S iv.68. Its seat is freq. mentioned with manasā (in the heart), viz. manasā diṭṭhigatāni cintayanto Sn 834; na pāpaŋ manasā pi cetaye Pv ii.97; J
2. Saññā : (page 670)
1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the third khandha Vin i.13; M i.300; S iii.3 sq.; Dhs 40, 58, 61, 113; VbhA 42. -- 2. sense, perception, discernment, recognition, assimilation of sensations, awareness M i.293; A iii.443 (nibbāna˚); S iii.87; Sn 732 (saññāya uparodhanā dukkhakkhayo hoti; expld as "kāmasaññā" SnA); Miln 61; Dhs 4; DhsA 110, 200 (rūpa˚ perception of materiala
Note that "awareness" and "consciousness" are considered synonymous in the case of both. Yet the meaning of each in Buddhist practice and understanding is often quite different:
The Cittas
Awareness is the process of cittas experiencing objects. For a citta to arise it must have an object (aaramma.na). The object may be a color, sound, smell, taste, something tangible, or a mental object. These are the six external objects. Strictly speaking a mental object can be an internal phenomenon, such as a feeling, a thought, or an idea, but as forming the objective sphere of experience they are all classed as external. Corresponding to these external objects there are six internal sense faculties, called "doors" since they are the portals through which the objects enter the field of cognition. These are the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. Each of the five physical sense faculties can receive only its appropriate object; the mind door, however, can receive both its own proper mental objects as well as the objects of the five physical senses. When a door receives its object, there arises a corresponding state of consciousness, such as eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. The union of the object, the door or sense faculty, and the consciousness is called "contact" (phassa). There can be no awareness without contact. For contact to occur all three components must be present — object, door, and consciousness. If one is missing there will be no contact. The process of the arising of consciousness and the subsequent train of events is analyzed in detail in the Abhidhamma. A study of this analysis will show that only "bare phenomena" are taking place and that there is no "self" involved in this process. This is the no-self characteristic of existence.
source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
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A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Kusala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Kusala »

3-Year-Old Remembers Past Life & Identifies His Murderer

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

The buried bones and burial site of the person killed with the axe are interesting.

The murder weapon should have been much more corroded than the one shown in the photo.

What were the names of the elders and the boy?

What was the murdered person's name?

Was there a forensics examination of the remains, which was correlated by qualified medical examiners? If so, what was the evidence, which proved the identity of the bones? (DNA, Dental, Biometrics)?

If so, what was the result?

Buddha....."Verify and validate!"....Kalama Sutta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Hieros Gamos
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Hieros Gamos »

Three year olds are known to be reliable.

Image
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

I 'ear what you are saying! :jumping:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Sanjay PS
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Sanjay PS »

BlackBird wrote:It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack
Thats a wonderful post Jack . It doesn't matter , all that matters is about letting go.............

with much admiration ,
sanjay
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The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

BlackBird wrote:It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack
:thumbsup:
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robpiso
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Re: Rebirth

Post by robpiso »

@ Nehemia83

The point is not to think about what is not the Self.
Why?
Because if you think, for instance, about an afterworld, you must think about death, and death will have a hold on you.
All you have to think about, is to get unbounded; not about Nibbana or any other such state.
You must get rid of everything that is not the Self; and rebirth is such a thing.

Cheers.
Last edited by robpiso on Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aloka
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Aloka »

If one is constantly worrying about rebirth and other lives, then the freshness of the here and now gets neglected. :)

There's also already a 263 page rebirth thread on the website:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41

:anjali:
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robpiso
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Re: Rebirth

Post by robpiso »

Aloka wrote:the freshness of the here and now
O, speculations about the Future (Aparantakappika) - Doctrines of Nibbāna Here and Now
(Ditthadhammanibbānavāda) - That does not seem very "Buddhistic".
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visitin
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by visitin »

Kusala wrote:3-Year-Old Remembers Past Life & Identifies His Murderer


A person's memory comprises the "visual and auditory imprints of the physical world" and the "imagination of those imprints", that he witnesses during his lifetime, nothing more nothing less. Which means, a 3-Year-Old can remember just those things that he witnesses in 3 years.
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

visitin wrote:
Kusala wrote:

A person's memory comprises the "visual and auditory imprints of the physical world" and the "imagination of those imprints", that he witnesses during his lifetime, nothing more nothing less. Which means, a 3-Year-Old can remember just those things that he witnesses in 3 years.
Sounds right as far as the current animal brain is concerned, but what about the memory of atoms and molecules such as hydrogen, DNA and RNA? What have they experienced in their trip through the universe?

The most honest thing that we as humans can say is, "I don't know!" The Buddha's know and have experienced much more than we mere mortals. :buddha1:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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