"So have you known the following for yourself, such that you are in a position to say that Ven. Thanissaro's interpretation is entirely right?"kirk5a wrote:what?
Explain what?kirk5a wrote:But can you explain it?
"So have you known the following for yourself, such that you are in a position to say that Ven. Thanissaro's interpretation is entirely right?"kirk5a wrote:what?
Explain what?kirk5a wrote:But can you explain it?
The above is an example of a confusion of views. This the reason for the confusion: Dependent Arising (paticca samuppada) describes a particular set of conditions in which a particular set of things happen which result in dukkha. When the Buddha makes reference to that which is conditioned, it is that particular set, described by DA, that he is talking about.Buckwheat wrote:Ajahn Thanissaro wrote: In line with his discussion of rebirth, the Buddha never offered a metaphysical explanation of what this consciousness is or how it might be. After all, it would be a mistake to justify the reality of the unconditioned with reference to the conditioned, as it's not dependent on any thing or any "how" in any way.
Buckwheat wrote: Also in "Truth of Rebirth" is a chapter showing that the Buddha never limited experience to the six sense spheres. What was limited to those spheres is objective descriptions. There is a passage that clearly states there is consciousness without surface (does not rely on the six sense spheres) and I have still yet to see anybody offer an alternative explaination for that passage. Most arguments against rebirth do indeed amount to materialism or annihilationism - a form of wrong view that I subscribe to as well.
No. So I don't suppose I am in a position to say he is definitely correct. But I'm not the one saying Ven. Thanissaro is "refuted" - that would be you. So I'm asking you a direct question as to whether you have any basis for that "refutation" other than the understanding derived from reading and thinking.daverupa wrote: "So have you known the following for yourself, such that you are in a position to say that Ven. Thanissaro's interpretation is entirely right?"
Explain what?
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
Are you another guy who literally does not know what he is talking about?nowheat wrote: When he talks about the Unborn, Unconditioned, Unaging, Deathless... he is making a specific reference to the mechanism he's describing with paticca samuppada -- it's what's born there, its aging, conditionality, and death(s) that is the issue. When he talks about the opposites, he is just saying that "that which arises" dependently is no longer there to be born, age, and die due to conditions.
Which is exactly what I do, though I am neither a believer in rebirth, nor a disbeliever. I am honest enough to admit that I don't know if there is or isn't rebirth, and that until there is convincing evidence to make one or the other obvious (and not just to me or a few) it is not worth debating and arguing about. (What the Buddha actually taught about rebirth, on the other hand, is worth debate time -- but that's not the same as debating whether there is or is not rebirth.)Buckwheat wrote:Ajahn Thanissaro wrote:So it is with all of our actions. Given that we have to wager one way or another all the time on how to find happiness, the Buddha stated that it's a safer wager to assume that actions bear results that can affect not only this lifetime but also lifetimes after this than it is to assume the opposite.
To answer your question, no. I'm someone who literally understands the dhamma differently than many folks do, after a lot of study and practice. Why do you ask?kirk5a wrote:Are you another guy who literally does not know what he is talking about?
Whatever I'd say on the matter would have to be taken with a grain of salt, but then, I'm not taking a stance on my current level of understanding, which I am entirely open to further development, or even being entirely overturned.
I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.nowheat wrote: To answer your question, no. I'm someone who literally understands the dhamma differently than many folks do, after a lot of study and practice. Why do you ask?
I am questioning where your confidence comes from. If it comes from actual experience, then perhaps you are able to explain the following. If you can't, why can't you?And as to your statement about yourself, that's a great place to be; I hope you stay that open-minded. The folks on this forum are some of the most open-minded, well-educated, thoughtful people I've encountered through Buddhism, and I am pretty sure they understand that every poster on here should be taken with a grain of salt, myself included.
But perhaps you were protesting the confidence I have in what I'm saying?
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
My understandings are (as with us all?) a constellation resulting from study and practice.kirk5a wrote:I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.
Knows and sees, and that this is what is experienced is backed up by "mere reading thinking, and reasoning."kirk5a wrote:I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.
Poetry is not my great strength, and I do not have an answer to every passage or reference in the Pali cannon -- it is big, and so much of it refers to things outside the canon, that it takes a lot to find the outside references that unlock the remaining mysteries in it. But that said...I am questioning where your confidence comes from. If it comes from actual experience, then perhaps you are able to explain the following. If you can't, why can't you?
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
Well then you can't say you know what the Buddha meant by "Released" then, can you.nowheat wrote: I am not talking about having achieved some ... Release From Death.
Could you say a little about your experience of seeing the Deathless?nowheat wrote:Knows and sees, and that this is what is experienced is backed up by "mere reading thinking, and reasoning."kirk5a wrote:I am curious to know whether a poster who proclaims views about "the Deathless" actually knows and sees the Deathless for him/herself or whether it's rooted in mere reading, thinking, and reasoning.
But in DO "death" is defined in straightforward physical terms - so I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.nowheat wrote:I am saying The Deathless isn't a great mystical state or Release From (literal) Death. I am saying it is a state of being liberated from the specific circumstances of DA, and that it is release from the Death he defined there, which is, really, just dukkha.
Again, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Based on how the nidanas are actually described in the suttas, DO describes how physical birth, aging and death arise in dependence on becoming ( bhava ) in the 3 realms - so is it not logical to assume that "unborn" and "deathless" are simply referring to the cessation of becoming, and therefore to the cessation of physical birth, aging and death?nowheat wrote:When he talks about the Unborn, Unconditioned, Unaging, Deathless... he is making a specific reference to the mechanism he's describing with paticca samuppada -- it's what's born there, its aging, conditionality, and death(s) that is the issue. When he talks about the opposites, he is just saying that "that which arises" dependently is no longer there to be born, age, and die due to conditions.