the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Element

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Element »

Will wrote:Therefore this "debate" wastes so much energy by one faction talking about their preferred practice and the other on the fact of Buddha teaching literal rebirth. Not a good basis for debate, if we keep arguing from differing premises. So I am out of it.
i disagree. if one has not attained stream entry, why bother talking about arahantship?

[Edited to correct attribution of quote - Retro.]
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kc2dpt
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kc2dpt »

Will wrote:Therefore this "debate" wastes so much energy by one faction talking about their preferred practice and the other on the fact of Buddha teaching literal rebirth.
The debate is whether that preferred practice is actually a Buddhist practice. If one comes to a Buddhist forum and says their preferred practice is, for example, to sacrifice animals people will not hesitate to tell him that is not Buddhist practice. Likewise, if one says they hold a view of annihilation then this is wrong view therefore not part of the Noble Eightfold Path.
Not a good basis for debate, if we keep arguing from differing premises.
What are the different premises? What premise are you arguing from?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by stuka »

Peter wrote:
Will wrote:Therefore this "debate" wastes so much energy by one faction talking about their preferred practice and the other on the fact of Buddha teaching literal rebirth.
The debate is whether that preferred practice is actually a Buddhist practice. If one comes to a Buddhist forum and says their preferred practice is, for example, to sacrifice animals people will not hesitate to tell him that is not Buddhist practice. Likewise, if one says they hold a view of annihilation then this is wrong view therefore not part of the Noble Eightfold Path.
Not a good basis for debate, if we keep arguing from differing premises.
What are the different premises? What premise are you arguing from?

Can I see a show of hands of all who claim annihilationism, materialism, and/or nihilism?

If no one here holds any of these positions, it seems rather a straw man to bring them up.
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by stuka »

zamis wrote:Nyanatiloka Mahathera says in "Kamma and Rebirth"
And further I wanted to point out that the kamma-process and rebirth-process may both be made comprehensible only by the assumption of a subconscious stream of life underlying everything in living nature.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 4.html#ch2

What say ya'll?

Sounds like Sati the Fisherman's Son.
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by stuka »

Will wrote:
Yet a right intellectual view of no self does not itself prevent future conventional births again or the operation of kamma/vipaka, correct?


Buddha didn't teach "no-self".

"Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.
Element

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Element »

Peter wrote: If one comes to a Buddhist forum and says their preferred practice is, for example, to sacrifice animals people will not hesitate to tell him that is not Buddhist practice. Likewise, if one says they hold a view of annihilation then this is wrong view therefore not part of the Noble Eightfold Path.
I would like to make a suggestion, in that we clarify the premise we are arguing from. For example, if we say to "hold a view of annihilation then this is wrong view therefore not part of the Noble Eightfold Path", we need to explain how it relates to actual practice. For example, let us consider the Buddha's words below found in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta.
Yet, Ananda, have I not taught from the very beginning that with all that is dear & beloved there must be change, separation & severance? Of that which is born, come into being, is compounded & subject to decay, how can one say: 'May it not come to dissolution!' There can be no such state of things.
The above words are clearly spoken for the purpose of quenching suffering. They are a method of practise to end suffering.

With metta

Element
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by stuka »

Will wrote:
Therefore this "debate" wastes so much energy by one faction talking about their preferred practice and the other on the fact of Buddha teaching literal rebirth. Not a good basis for debate, if we keep arguing from differing premises. So I am out of it.
Seems rather a conveniently distorted characterization of what is being discussed, to provide smoke cover for a hasty retreat.

There are those who would claim that without active, positive belief in reincarnation/"rebirth", one cannot call oneself Buddhist, and one cannot practice the Noble Eightfold Path (this is, of course, the nexus wherein lies the discussion of practice vs. belief in superstitions and speculative views). Of course, this same faction tends to pound ad nauseum the fallacious argument that claims that non-belief is the same as belief in a negative (nihilist, annihiliationist) position, which is of course a Straw Man (actually a Straw-Man/Red-Herring/Ad-Hominem Cocktail).

Some venues will allow, and even encourage and enforce Ad Baculum, such chicanery. We seriously doubt that Dhamma Wheel is one of them.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Cittasanto »

Maybe Dhammanando, or another could provide sutta references to the different places rebirth is mentioned?

but why does the Buddha have to be talking about two different lives why not two different moments?
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Element

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Element »

Manapa wrote:Maybe Dhammanando, or another could provide sutta references to the different places rebirth is mentioned?
Suttas support both rebirth & non-rebirth. The important issue is to relate one's view to practice.
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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ben »

Dear all,
Espousing among views his own as highest,
Whatever he regards as "best",
All else he will as "low" condemn;
Thus one will never get beyond disputes


-- Sutta Nipata v.796
The wonderful thing about Dhamma is that through bhavana one develops one's own insight into the nature of things.
May your meditation be productive!
Kind regards

Ben
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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kc2dpt
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kc2dpt »

Manapa wrote:but why does the Buddha have to be talking about two different lives why not two different moments?
An easy example:

Ananda asked the Buddha the status of a recently deceased monk. The Buddha replied the monk had attained sotapanna and would therefore be reborn no more than seven times. Since the monk in question is dead, what could moment to moment mean? Likewise when he spoke of sakadagamis and anagamis.
- Peter

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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by stuka »

Peter wrote:
Manapa wrote:but why does the Buddha have to be talking about two different lives why not two different moments?
An easy example:

Ananda asked the Buddha the status of a recently deceased monk. The Buddha replied the monk had attained sotapanna and would therefore be reborn no more than seven times. Since the monk in question is dead, what could moment to moment mean? Likewise when he spoke of sakadagamis and anagamis.


Actually, that answer can be taken either way.The Buddha does not necessarily state that this monk attained sotapanna at death. Another way to look at it is that the question is based in "right view with effluents", as is the answer.
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by stuka »

Ben wrote:Dear all,
Espousing among views his own as highest,
Whatever he regards as "best",
All else he will as "low" condemn;
Thus one will never get beyond disputes


-- Sutta Nipata v.796
Ben
Good thing no one is doing that here.

...however, the Buddha did make clear which view he regarded as best.

8-)
Last edited by stuka on Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by stuka »

Peter wrote: The debate is whether that preferred practice is actually a Buddhist practice.
If this is so, Peter, then which "preferred practice" are you claiming is "not actually a Buddhist practice"?
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Element wrote:When there is 'no escape', we can fully and powerfully test and apply the higher teachings of the Buddha and gain complete confidence in their efficacy to end dukkha.
If there is no escape what is the point of ending dukkha?
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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