the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

In reguards to consciousness in general

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'Aging & death exist when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there aging & death?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Aging & death exist when birth exists. From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Birth exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes birth?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Birth exists when becoming exists. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'


"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.
Bhikkhus, founded on whatever, consciousness arises, it is reckoned on that. On account of eye and forms arises consciousness, it’s reckoned eye consciousness. On account of ear and sounds arises consciousness, it’s reckoned ear consciousness. On account of nose and smells arises consciousness, it’s reckoned nose consciousness. On account of tongue and tastes arises consciousness, it’s reckoned tongue consciousness.On account of body and touches arises consciousness, it’s reckoned body consciousness. On account of mind and ideas arises consciousness, it’s reckoned mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as based on whatever fire burns, it is reckoned by that. Fire ablaze with sticks is stick fire. Ablaze with twigs is twig fire. Ablaze with grass is grass fire. Ablaze with cowdung is cowdung fire. Ablaze with grain thrash is grain thrash fire. Ablaze with dirt is dirt fire. In the same manner consciousness on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness on account of nose and smells is nose conscioussness. Consciousness on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness on account of body and touches is body consciousness. Consciousness on account of mind and ideas is mind consciousness.
http://www.vipassana.info/037-culatanha ... tta-e1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Craig,
clw_uk wrote: P.S. I might not have been to clear on some points, im a bit tired, so ask me to clarify if you like
Thank you for your responses. Obviously, your answer to my question is "no". The Buddha only warns about past and future in terms of "I", not in terms of process.

One should not do this:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"And how, monks, does one yearn for the future? He thinks: 'I may have such form in the future' and brings delight to bear on it. He thinks: 'I may have such feeling... such perception... such formations...'... He thinks: 'I may have such consciousness in the future' and brings delight to bear on it. That is how, monks, one yearns for the future.
One should do this:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; even so, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey Mike


"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; even so, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'
Notice though how this is all done in the present moment, not with looking forward and back. If one looks forward or back then one engages in "I" making, this is my view and understanding at any rate


metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote: Notice though how this is all done in the present moment, not with looking forward and back. If one looks forward or back then one engages in "I" making, this is my view and understanding at any rate
Of course, all thinking happens in the present, but this thinking is about the future:
With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here
Metta
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salaatti
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by salaatti »

In the dhammapada Buddha says:

"Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death."

Some have said that this means that birth and death are only concepts that have no place in reality. Is this the correct interpretation?
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

salaatti wrote:In the dhammapada Buddha says:

"Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death."

Some have said that this means that birth and death are only concepts that have no place in reality. Is this the correct interpretation?
That is one way some people look at things, but it is not necessarily the only way to look at things. To do it that way one has to twist things arround a bit.

The Buddha taught rebirth as this passage suggests.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

salaatti wrote:In the dhammapada Buddha says:

"Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death."

Some have said that this means that birth and death are only concepts that have no place in reality. Is this the correct interpretation?



A basic explanation that I would give is that when a mind is liberated it no longer gets born into happines or born into sadness


We must see that there is no reason to be born. Born in what way?
Born into gladness: When we get something we like we are glad over
it. If there is no clinging to that gladness there is no birth; if there is
clinging, this is called ‘birth’. So if we get something, we aren’t born
(into gladness). If we lose, then we aren’t born (into sorrow). This
is the birthless and the deathless. Birth and death are both founded in
clinging to and cherishing the san˙kha¯ras.

So the Buddha said. “There is no more becoming for me, finished
is the holy life, this is my last birth.” There! He knew the birthless and
the deathless. This is what the Buddha constantly exhorted his disciples
to know. This is the right practice. If you don’t reach it, if you don’t
reach the Middle Way, then you won’t transcend suffering
Ajahn Chah

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
salaatti wrote:In the dhammapada Buddha says:

"Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death."

Some have said that this means that birth and death are only concepts that have no place in reality. Is this the correct interpretation?



A basic explanation that I would give is that when a mind is liberated it no longer gets born into happiness or born into sadness
What really gets ya is when happiness reaches old age and gets sick before it dies.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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phil
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by phil »

Hi Peter
Peter wrote: Right there Batchelor highlights what I think is the difference between believing in something and adopting a view. Buddhism in fact never talks about believing in rebirth; it talks about adopting the view of rebirth, behaving as if it were true.
Thanks for putting this so clearly, it's something I've vaguely been throwing around in my head. Does it come from the Kalama sutta or elsewhere? I remember something about accepting something provisionally, accepting it for the sake of accepting it even without fully ascribing(?) to it or something like that. Could you or someone identify that passage for me? Thanks.

I definitely beliving in behaving as though I believed in rebirth even without being able to fully believe in it, and it doesn't feel hypocritical or foolish to do so, it is very effective in weaking harmful tendencies. And there are so many indisputably true and hugely helpful things the Buddha has taught me(us) that He gets the benefit of doubt on the teachings that are harder to accept logically or whatever.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
salaatti
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by salaatti »

What is difficult for me to understand, is that why Buddhist teachers have different views on rebirth. They do the same practice, which is supposed to lead to understanding of the mind and reality. But still buddhists teachers (even from the same sect) have very different opinions on this. Why do you think this is?
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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

Hi Salaatti

The vast majority of Buddhist teachers actually have pretty similar views as to 'post-mortem continuance' for want of a more fluid phrase. Assuming that's what you were talking about

I can only think of one that doesn't, and even then, he only went so far as to de-emphasise it, not to deny it. Perhaps this shows my lack of depth of understanding on this issue, I don't know.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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J-Jay
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by J-Jay »

I have always wondered, that if there is no self, then isn't there no one to attain Nibbana?
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Cittasanto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Cittasanto »

So what is the conclusions that have been made here?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Manapa wrote:So what is the conclusions that have been made here?
Can there ever be any conclusion to such debates?

There are two extreme wrong views — eternalism and annihllationism. The Middle Way taught by the Buddha avoids these two extremes. Whatever conclusion readers come to will depend on the view that they incline towards.

Others may realise that coming to any conclusion is merely grasping at a view.

As long as ignorance and craving remain, there is rebirth after death, but it is not a self that is reborn. The process of saṃsāra continues unabated until ignorance is eradicated. The Dhamma was taught by the Buddha to lead beings out of the cycle of saṃsāra.

The Advantages of Realising Anattā
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Cittasanto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Cittasanto »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Manapa wrote:So what is the conclusions that have been made here?
Can there ever be any conclusion to such debates?

There are two extreme wrong views — eternalism and annihllationism. The Middle Way taught by the Buddha avoids these two extremes. Whatever conclusion readers come to will depend on the view that they incline towards.

Others may realise that coming to any conclusion is merely grasping at a view.

As long as ignorance and craving remain, there is rebirth after death, but it is not a self that is reborn. The process of saṃsāra continues unabated until ignorance is eradicated. The Dhamma was taught by the Buddha to lead beings out of the cycle of saṃsāra.

The Advantages of Realising Anattā
so you idn't get it :tongue:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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