the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by thepea »

chownah wrote: Seems like a discussion for the Is Buddhism closer to christianity than atheism thread.
chownah
But they are pointing to the same truth, it is not a matter of closer or further. It seems acceptable at this forum to point out apparent differences but not comparisons. If this is an appropriate topic to discuss openly and share our meditative experiences, which have led to the insights into this matter, then unlock the "Bunch of keys" thread, where this direct comparison resulted in lockdown. :?: Until then it seems disingenuous and a violation of the tos to even mention another religion.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

thepea wrote:
chownah wrote: Seems like a discussion for the Is Buddhism closer to christianity than atheism thread.
chownah
But they are pointing to the same truth, it is not a matter of closer or further. It seems acceptable at this forum to point out apparent differences but not comparisons. If this is an appropriate topic to discuss openly and share our meditative experiences, which have led to the insights into this matter, then unlock the "Bunch of keys" thread, where this direct comparison resulted in lockdown. :?: Until then it seems disingenuous and a violation of the tos to even mention another religion.
Pardon me for asking, because I don't usually pay much attention to this topic these days, but what has all of this stuff about Xtianity got to do with "the great rebirth debate" anyway ?

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thepea
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by thepea »

Aloka wrote: Pardon me for asking, because I don't usually pay much attention to this topic these days, but what has all of this stuff about Xtianity got to do with "the great rebirth debate" anyway ?

.
It was brought up by clw.uk, it has bearing on my story/experience with regards to the connection/significance between Holy ghost/Sangha and how from a Buddhist culture the term Sangha is understood.
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Aloka wrote:
Pardon me for asking, because I don't usually pay much attention to this topic these days, but what has all of this stuff about Xtianity got to do with "the great rebirth debate" anyway ?
Since we are approaching the Christian Easter period, it would be fitting and fair along this line of comparison to say that Jesus of Nazareth was associated with rebirths in several ways:

1. As he was baptized by Saint John The Baptist (his cousin) he was "reborn" in what Christians call the power of The Holy Spirit. This is a spiritual rebirth as opposed to a physical rebirth. Because The Holy Spirit is said to "proceed from The Father and The Son, who sit in heaven, and embodies The Will of God."

2. Jesus had the power to raise corpses from the dead. There are several examples of this in The New Testament, the most famous being his raising of Lazerous, who had been dead for but a few days.

3. Jesus himself was said to be crucified,died, was buried, and rose from the dead after three days.

4. Finally, it is through the power of The Returning Christ, who will come after the final days of the great destruction of this world to judge both the living and the dead, and as The Judge, who will cause the bones of the spiritually worthy of the dead and the spiritually worthy of the living to live forever under His Reign in Paradise right here on Earth. :toast:

I am not sure what happens when our local star, The Sun, goes red giant as that information is not included in The Christian Bible.

----------


In Buddhism it is more complicated than that and the only one who has power over the nature of our rebirths is us, who must perfect living our lives in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path. Each one of us must through our individual understanding and practices become the creators of our own paradises or hells, and then hopefully through this process become wise enough to attain nibbana.

That's all I got! :twothumbsup:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

Do you think that jesus could have made people into zombies?...and would this count as a rebirth?
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

chownah: "Do you think that jesus could have made people into zombies?...and would this count as a rebirth?
chownah"
I think that only happens in Haitian Voodoo practice and in horror movies, The most famous recent one being "Abraham Lincoln vs. The Zombies". There are no mentions of zombies in The New Testament to the best of my knowledge.

Haitian Voodo and Zombies http://www.umich.edu/~engl415/zombies/zombie.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Famous Zombie Movies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_zombie_films" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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dhammacoustic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dhammacoustic »

Jesus clearly disagrees with Christianity-
"Watch yourselves and pray in the hope that you may not be born in the flesh ever again, but that you may leave the bitter bondage of life."
"This soul needs to follow another soul in whom the Spirit of life dwells, because she is saved through the Spirit. Then she will never be thrust into flesh again."
"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, let Christ shine on you."
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit."
"I was given a sound body to live in, because I was already good."
"I declare to you, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:There are no mentions of zombies in The New Testament to the best of my knowledge.
I think it might be said that Lazarus is functionally the same as a zombie. As I understand it, a Haitian sorcerer's purpose in creating a zombie is to arouse in people a conviction as to his necromantic powers. In the Gospel of John, that's more or less Jesus's stated reason for wanting to raise Lazarus from the dead:
  • "When Jesus heard [of Lazarus's sickness], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby." (John 11:4)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

An interesting interview with Ven. Bodhi on the subject:
"AB: Bhante, let's for the sake of argument say there was some way of disproving rebirth. Let’s say science was able to come up with a solid piece of evidence that consciousness was produced by the brain. If that was the case and you were satisfied with the scientific argument, would you still be a Buddhist?

BB: If they actually disproved rebirth, then I would say, regretfully, that my belief in all of the teachings in the suttas about life continuing beyond death – being reborn, this realm, that realm, the ideal of Nibbāna as liberation, the end of the cycle of birth and death – all of that, I guess, would just have to fall by the wayside. But I would still be a Buddhist, a secular Buddhist, because I would still find it beneficial to continue Buddhist practices here and now. I would still find present life benefits from the Buddhist practices I’ve adopted."

http://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/int ... u-bodhi/64" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


It's interesting to note that he said he would still practice Buddhism regardless of if Rebirth was true or not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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dhammacoustic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dhammacoustic »

Bhante, let's for the sake of argument say there was some way of disproving rebirth. Let’s say science was able to come up with a solid piece of evidence that consciousness was produced by the brain. If that was the case and you were satisfied with the scientific argument, would you still be a Buddhist?
Better question;

how could a monk assert that consciousness exists on its own? The Buddha is quite clear that consciousness arises due to conditions, or am I missing something? Consciousness is surely produced by the brain and other physical factors, and is described as 'old kamma' in the suttas.
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

The interview is worth reading as a whole. There is some interesting discussion on a number of issues:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Whatever position one comes down to, I think the only solution is just to say that that’s the way it is. The physical reductionist, when he’s confronted with consciousness, choice, decision – how consciousness, choice, decision, evaluation, knowledge can arise on the basis of purely physical processes – he’s stuck too. And he has to say that that’s just the way it is. And the metaphysical idealist who holds that mind is the only ultimate reality, when confronted with the close connection between mind and brain, the problem of brain damage, the damage to the functioning of the mind, when he’s confronted with that problem, he has to say that that’s the way it is.
:anjali:
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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:The interview is worth reading as a whole.
Indeed it is.
BB: ...let's put it this way – when I reflect on the teaching of kamma, I don’t proceed from the level of what is happening in the present and try to track it back to the past, and then say what is happening in the present must be the result of some kamma that I did in the past, or that other people did in the past. For example, when there’s a plane crash – suppose two hundred people die – somebody will raise the question, “Did all of those people have a karmic disposition to die in a plane crash?” And to this I just have to say I don’t know. And I don’t know if the teaching of kamma necessitates that.

So in my reflection I work from the level of the cause forward to what the effect will be.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

dhammacoustic wrote:Consciousness is surely produced by the brain and other physical factors, and is described as 'old kamma' in the suttas.
In the only sutta where the term is found, 'old kamma' means the six bases.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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dhammacoustic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dhammacoustic »

Dhammanando wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:Consciousness is surely produced by the brain and other physical factors, and is described as 'old kamma' in the suttas.
In the only sutta where the term is found, 'old kamma' means the six bases.
Bhante, what is the Pali term used here (↓) for 'consciosuness'?
“Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another’?”

“Exactly so, venerable sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

“What is consciousness, Sāti?”

“Venerable sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions.”

“Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”
And I don't remember exactly (possibly in the Udana Sutta) the Buddha describes consciousness as something 'fabricated' and 'willed'. And consciousness is not-self AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

dhammacoustic wrote:Bhante, what is the Pali term used here (↓) for 'consciosuness'?
  • “Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another’?”
Viññāṇa.
dhammacoustic wrote:And I don't remember exactly (possibly in the Udana Sutta) the Buddha describes consciousness as something 'fabricated' and 'willed'. And consciousness is not-self AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Yes, I wasn't denying that all consciousness is dependently-originated, but the idea that it's all originated by kamma.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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