the great rebirth debate

[Hieros Gamos]

Three year olds are known to be reliable.

[Ron-The-Elder]

I 'ear what you are saying!

[BlackBird]

It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack

[Sanjay PS]

It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack

Thats a wonderful post Jack . It doesn't matter , all that matters is about letting go.............

with much admiration ,
sanjay

[Spiny Norman]

It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack

[robpiso]

@ Nehemia83

The point is not to think about what is not the Self.
Why?
Because if you think, for instance, about an afterworld, you must think about death, and death will have a hold on you.
All you have to think about, is to get unbounded; not about Nibbana or any other such state.
You must get rid of everything that is not the Self; and rebirth is such a thing.

Cheers.

[Aloka]

If one is constantly worrying about rebirth and other lives, then the freshness of the here and now gets neglected.

There's also already a 263 page rebirth thread on the website:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41

[robpiso]

the freshness of the here and now

O, speculations about the Future (Aparantakappika) - Doctrines of Nibbāna Here and Now
(Ditthadhammanibbānavāda) - That does not seem very "Buddhistic".
Brahmajāla Sutta http://bit.ly/1uO03N3

[visitin]

3-Year-Old Remembers Past Life & Identifies His Murderer

phpBB .

A person's memory comprises the "visual and auditory imprints of the physical world" and the "imagination of those imprints", that he witnesses during his lifetime, nothing more nothing less. Which means, a 3-Year-Old can remember just those things that he witnesses in 3 years.

[Ron-The-Elder]

A person's memory comprises the "visual and auditory imprints of the physical world" and the "imagination of those imprints", that he witnesses during his lifetime, nothing more nothing less. Which means, a 3-Year-Old can remember just those things that he witnesses in 3 years.

Sounds right as far as the current animal brain is concerned, but what about the memory of atoms and molecules such as hydrogen, DNA and RNA? What have they experienced in their trip through the universe?

The most honest thing that we as humans can say is, "I don't know!" The Buddha's know and have experienced much more than we mere mortals.

[visitin]

but what about the memory of atoms and molecules such as hydrogen, DNA and RNA? What have they experienced in their trip through the universe?

The fact that atoms and molecules are not sensitive to light and sound at any level, proves that they lack eye and ear like senses necessary to develop memory in the first place.

[culaavuso]

The fact that atoms and molecules are not sensitive to light and sound at any level, proves that they lack eye and ear like senses necessary to develop memory in the first place.

The sensitivity of atoms and molecules to light is observable via absorption spectroscopy and the sensitivity of atoms and molecules to sound is observable via sonochemistry. In both cases the resultant states are distinguishable from states without the corresponding stimulation by light or sound.

[visitin]

The fact that atoms and molecules are not sensitive to light and sound at any level, proves that they lack eye and ear like senses necessary to develop memory in the first place.

The sensitivity of atoms and molecules to light is observable via absorption spectroscopy and the sensitivity of atoms and molecules to sound is observable via sonochemistry. In both cases the resultant states are distinguishable from states without the corresponding stimulation by light or sound.

The sensitivity to light and sound, should gives rise to visual and auditory perception, it shouldn't bring about the physical or chemical change. Heck, you can burn a piece of paper with lens, it doesn't mean that the piece of paper is sensitive to sunlight. You can even shatter a glass with sonic boom, doesn't mean glass is sensitive to sound.

[Ron-The-Elder]

visitin: "The sensitivity to light and sound, should gives rise to visual and auditory perception, it shouldn't bring about the physical or chemical change. Heck, you can burn a piece of paper with lens, it doesn't mean that the piece of paper is sensitive to sunlight. You can even shatter a glass with sonic boom, doesn't mean glass is sensitive to sound."

The point is that all matter has a memory, a means of displaying its experience over time. For example it is well known that Uranium decays to lead. Therefore, if you find lead, it is a fore-drawn conclusion that it began its existence as Uranium. Its decay rate is also known. Therefore you can calculate when it was first created in terms of time.

http://web.utk.edu/~cnattras/Phys250Fal ... _decay.htm

While you are correct that matter does not have an organic memory as does the human brain, it's state bears witness to its origins.

[Mkoll]

For example it is well known that Uranium decays to lead. Therefore, if you find lead, it is a fore-drawn conclusion that it began its existence as Uranium.

According to Wikipedia, lead isotope 204 is not radiogenic so it didn't begin its existence as uranium.