the great rebirth debate

[Alex123]

"Striving" doesn't do it for me, Alex. Relaxing and letting go of all that extra mental baggage does.

OK. We can use "Relaxing and letting go of all that extra mental baggage". Belief in rebirth and dangers thereof, and of inevitability kammavipāka (a crucial aspect of Dhamma) is important to motivate and set the goal for the path.

" The Buddhist teaching is ultimate simplicity and it takes things to the the most simple level of pure awareness -and that's so simple that most people never really get it.

We have to make Buddhism more complex -especially for lay people!" - chuckles

(Ajahn Sumedho - Amaravati Kathina.)

A worm doesn't indulge in speculations, doesn't think, doesn't have thoughts of worry, cannot have doubt about anything, lives in perfect simplicity.

Is that the sort of Buddhism you promote?

[Aloka]

"Striving" doesn't do it for me, Alex. Relaxing and letting go of all that extra mental baggage does.

OK. We can use "Relaxing and letting go of all that extra mental baggage". Belief in rebirth and dangers thereof, and of inevitability kammavipāka (a crucial aspect of Dhamma) is important to motivate and set the goal for the path.

" The Buddhist teaching is ultimate simplicity and it takes things to the the most simple level of pure awareness -and that's so simple that most people never really get it.

We have to make Buddhism more complex -especially for lay people!" - chuckles

(Ajahn Sumedho - Amaravati Kathina.)

A worm doesn't indulge in speculations, doesn't think, doesn't have thoughts of worry, cannot have doubt about anything, lives in perfect simplicity.

Is that the sort of Buddhism you promote?

Do you meditate Alex ?

[Alex123]

Do you meditate Alex ?

Yes.

Mostly I do contemplations (and modified satipatthana) in daily activities through the day.

Sitting sessions are not going very well. Too much health problems, the prescription pain medications make it even harder... If not problems such as health, than I probably would have been already a meditating monk ...

[bodom]

Lets see again what Ajahn Sumedho is saying here in "The sound of Silence"...

Aloka

You are not representing Ajahn Sumedho very well. As has been shown to you already Ajahn Sumedho is not a rebirth denier. He has spoken of literal rebirth many times.

You say you are neutral on the whole rebirth issue but continually quote only half of what Ajahn Sumedho has spoken of on rebirth. Please dont pick and and choose and pigeonhole Ajahn Sumedho's words the way rebirth denier's do so with the Buddha's.

[Aloka]

Hi Bodom,

My view is that there seems very little point in having a rebirth debate if obsessing about it is the only position accepted.

I have spoken privately to Ajahn Sumedho about these matters. Our conversations will remain private, but the main point is that he considers focus on present moment awareness to be more important than speculation about rebirth and other realms - and this is what I have been trying to convey to people who can't get past that.

Just as an extra point of interest, when I was practising Vajrayana in the past, an offline Tibetan Buddhist teacher also pointed to the present with "Don't worry about other lives - this is the one that counts! "

Be well and at ease.

Kind regards,

Aloka

[tiltbillings]

My view is that there seems very little point in having a rebirth debate if obsessing about it is the only position accepted.

The majority of the obsessing that seems to take place here is with the rebirth-deniers.

I have spoken privately to Ajahn Sumedho about these matters. Our conversations will remain private, but the main point is that he considers focus on present moment awareness to be more important than speculation about rebirth and other realms - and this is what I have been trying to convey to people who can't get past that.

That is nice; however, it carries no weight as an argument, since it cannot be verfied.

an offline Tibetan Buddhist teacher also pointed to the present with "Don't worry about other lives - this is the one that counts! "

Which is good advice. The Buddha taught rebirth, but beliving in rebirth is less imprtant than the practice that happens in the moment. Rebirth will take care itself.

[Aloka]

an offline Tibetan Buddhist teacher also pointed to the present with "Don't worry about other lives - this is the one that counts! "

Which is good advice. The Buddha taught rebirth, but beliving in rebirth is less imprtant than the practice that happens in the moment. Rebirth will take care itself.

Exactly !

[Sasana]

Hi Bodom,

My view is that there seems very little point in having a rebirth debate if obsessing about it is the only position accepted.

I have spoken privately to Ajahn Sumedho about these matters. Our conversations will remain private, but the main point is that he considers focus on present moment awareness to be more important than speculation about rebirth and other realms - and this is what I have been trying to convey to people who can't get past that.

Just as an extra point of interest, when I was practising Vajrayana in the past, an offline Tibetan Buddhist teacher also pointed to the present with "Don't worry about other lives - this is the one that counts! "

Be well and at ease.

Kind regards,

Aloka

I find it rather disconcerting that people are so passionate about theses views. This shouldn't be a debate about who is right and who isn't, it should be in reality accepted that people have different views and that is a fact of life.

I agree with you on maintaining a neutral stance and find it odd that people could contemplate suicide if the idea of rebirth in their view isn't correct.

With Metta,

Adam

[kirk5a]

I find it rather disconcerting that people are so passionate about theses views. This shouldn't be a debate about who is right and who isn't, it should be in reality accepted that people have different views and that is a fact of life.

I agree with you on maintaining a neutral stance and find it odd that people could contemplate suicide if the idea of rebirth in their view isn't correct.

With Metta,

Adam

People passionate about these views and debating who is right and who isn't - also a fact of life! Others should or shouldn't... There's only my relationship with facts. "Hello facts, lovely day today wouldn't you say?" lol

[Sasana]

I find it rather disconcerting that people are so passionate about theses views. This shouldn't be a debate about who is right and who isn't, it should be in reality accepted that people have different views and that is a fact of life.

I agree with you on maintaining a neutral stance and find it odd that people could contemplate suicide if the idea of rebirth in their view isn't correct.

With Metta,

Adam

People passionate about these views and debating who is right and who isn't - also a fact of life! Others should or shouldn't... There's only my relationship with facts. "Hello facts, lovely day today wouldn't you say?" lol

Well this is true too, and as such maybe I should learn to except this as well. I would like everyone to be happy bunnies!

With Metta,

Adam

[kirk5a]

I would like everyone to be happy bunnies!

And if they aren't, then again there's just my relationship to unhappy bunnies.

[Aloka]

I would like everyone to be happy bunnies!

[Ceisiwr]

Or there is having no notions or views about one life, two lives or a million lives

hehe having no notions! but what will I do without my notions!

Well in terms of the Buddha the only "notion" was paticcasamuppada


Dukkha and its arising, as well as the various metaphysical obsessions that arise

[Ceisiwr]

Alex

Is that due to lack of knowledge or extreme agnosticism?

Knowing how a view arises is knowledge, is it not?

The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the uprooting of views: that's what I know. That's what I see. Knowing that, I say 'I know.' Seeing that, I say 'I see.' Why should I say 'I don't know, I don't see'? I do know. I do see."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If there was only one life, then what would be the point of practice? Why wouldn't one simply take strong medicine to tranquillize bad mental states?

Because there is no magic pill that simply gets rid of all negative mental states.

We all would attain parinibbāna at death. In fact one could attain it even quicker... That would be a very rational choice...If that was the case, then I could end all my daily physical pain quickly...

This arises because you simply see life as suffering. The buddha taught that suffering was clinging to the aggregates, not the aggregates themselves. However I know you see it as simple life = suffering due to your advocation of blind faith in texts (something the Buddha actually warned against)

As someone has said: "Life is beautiful once you find the right anti-depressant".

Nonsense

[Ceisiwr]

Alex

Whenever one acts, it is due to a certain goal. Action is dependent on beliefs. The belief in danger of samsara is a required condition for action to get out of it. The more afraid you are of burning house, the more effort is produced to get out ASAP!

It can be said that the intial search begins with "I am suffering" however eventually one understands that the "I" is the problem in the first place. When there is noble right view there is no wanting to get rid off or wanting to attain. Effortless effort (krishnamurti), intentionless intention

When one settles into right view, which is neither wanting or opposing, then there is right effort ...... right knowledge

If we limit samsara and its danger to one life only, then the limited understanding of danger will produce limited sense of danger, and limited effort to get out.

Only because its a danger in your metaphysical view

Ultimately, even bare aggregates, devoid of clinging (which is very hard to achieve within one life. How many anagamis or arahants are there?), produce lots of pain... There would be an easy way to get rid of all bodily pain, and various painful events that can occur despite one's lack of present clinging.

Pain is just pain, dukkha is not wanting the pain

I would also like to know how you know there are not many arahants