Mindfulness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
MayaRefugee
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Mindfulness

Post by MayaRefugee »

Greetings,

When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?

If the goal is to eventually eliminate the notion of an "I" and you actually do eliminate the notion of an "I" how could you say "I" is being mindful?

Thanks
Reductor
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Reductor »

MayaRefugee wrote:Greetings,

When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?
The process is in the process of being aware of the process. Awareness is awareness and is otherwise indescribable beyond the object it is aware of.

If the goal is to eventually eliminate the notion of an "I" and you actually do eliminate the notion of an "I" how could you say "I" is being mindful?

Thanks
You can't, in the sense that you know that there is no "I". But language makes the use of reflexive pronouns as a matter of course. So for an arahant to speak, he must make use of such things as the dreaded "I".

A car is made up of thousands of parts, not even one of them is a 'car', yet we call the final product a 'car'. A person is made up of even more parts, and all of the moving. There is no part that might be called 'I', yet we call all this accumulation of parts 'I' because it is the easiest way to refer to it.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings MayaRefugee,

The Satipatthana Sutta will give you a comprehensive (yet not exhaustive) collection of things one could be mindful of.

MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
MayaRefugee
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by MayaRefugee »

thereductor wrote:The process is in the process of being aware of the process.


Can this go on to infinity?

BTW, Thanks for the replies....

Peace.
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Dan74
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Dan74 »

what is it that is being mindful?
This is for us to find out (maybe). In Chan (Chinese Zen) this is called a hua-tou (hwadu in Korean). It's a deep inquiry which once it takes root keeps the practitioner in a constant one-pointed state of meditation that eventually leads to a break-through. In the process, the practitioner lets go of all else, even concern for one's body and life. The inquiry pushes ever deeper, past every conceptual notion, part perception and physical sensation, past the arising and falling of though and mentation... As all these are revealed to be not-self and identifications dissolve, what emerges in clear unspotted brightness is the unborn and the unconditioned.

But as a direct answer of your question I would just echo the other posters and say that there is no agent, but a habitual pattern of volition. A mental formation of effort and attendant sensations, all empty and without a core, a self. But we usually perceived a self within, due to our conditioning.
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reductor
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Reductor »

MayaRefugee wrote:
thereductor wrote:The process is in the process of being aware of the process.


Can this go on to infinity?

BTW, Thanks for the replies....

Peace.
It has so far, but it doesn't have to.

However, it is not an easy thing to put an end to (if you accept life to life rebirth as true).

We are always 'mindful' in that we are always aware of an object (ie, feeling, thought, perceptions, input from the 5 senses), but in the skillful mode of mindfulness there is a process which halts the usual chain of perceptions that arise and instead looks at the object in terms of its true characteristics. In fact it is best to know what the perception is and what the actual characteristics of the object are, so that you can compare them.

Eventually all objects that are made the object of mindfulness are analyzed to the point that desire for any object ceases, and so their is something called 'cessation of feeling and perception' which is awareness without object. This is the first time in the entire history of existence that 'our' awareness is without object. I hear it is really something else :meditate:

And so there is my long winded answer.
MayaRefugee
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by MayaRefugee »

Not being rude here but what I meant to ask was:

At 1, the process is in the process of being aware of the process.

At 2 could the process be in the process of being aware that it is in the process of being aware of the process.

Then at 3 could it be aware of what it's doing at 2 and at 4 be aware of what it's doing at 3 and so on to infinity.

Peace.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

MayaRefugee wrote:Not being rude here but what I meant to ask was:

At 1, the process is in the process of being aware of the process.

At 2 could the process be in the process of being aware that it is in the process of being aware of the process.

Then at 3 could it be aware of what it's doing at 2 and at 4 be aware of what it's doing at 3 and so on to infinity.

Peace.
Infinite regress, but why make this complicated?

The original question:
When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?
No need for infinite regress: You are being mindful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Dan74 »

MayaRefugee wrote:Not being rude here but what I meant to ask was:

At 1, the process is in the process of being aware of the process.

At 2 could the process be in the process of being aware that it is in the process of being aware of the process.

Then at 3 could it be aware of what it's doing at 2 and at 4 be aware of what it's doing at 3 and so on to infinity.

Peace.
Like Tilt says, just focus on the object of awareness and there is no infinite regress.

Going a touch deeper, at each of your stages above, "it" is a fiction. Remove "it" and what are you left with? Just awareness.

So sure, if you like to drive yourself insane, think of it as "I am being aware of myself being aware of myself being aware...." and keep going, but there is no need. Simply aware, "the one" being aware is exposed as an unnecessary extra, a concept that divides awareness into subject and object. But there is actually no division like that present. It is just a useful tool for communication.

But until there is knowledge of that, it's good to try and put 100% into awareness of your meditation object. Then the notion of you being aware, of watching time passing, etc gradually gives way to a more complete awareness of whatever it is.



Does this address your question?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote: At each stage, "it" is a fiction. Remove "it" and what are you left with? Just awareness.

So sure, if you like to drive yourself insane, think of it as "I am being aware of myself being aware of myself being aware...." and keep going, but there is no need. Simply aware, "the one" being aware is exposed as an unnecessary extra, a concept that divides awareness into subject and object. But there is actually no division like that present. It is just a useful tool for communication.

Does this address your question?
If it were my question, your answer really does not address it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote: At each stage, "it" is a fiction. Remove "it" and what are you left with? Just awareness.

So sure, if you like to drive yourself insane, think of it as "I am being aware of myself being aware of myself being aware...." and keep going, but there is no need. Simply aware, "the one" being aware is exposed as an unnecessary extra, a concept that divides awareness into subject and object. But there is actually no division like that present. It is just a useful tool for communication.

Does this address your question?
If it were my question, your answer really does not address it.
Since you've raised it, do you care to elaborate?
_/|\_
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote: At each stage, "it" is a fiction. Remove "it" and what are you left with? Just awareness.

So sure, if you like to drive yourself insane, think of it as "I am being aware of myself being aware of myself being aware...." and keep going, but there is no need. Simply aware, "the one" being aware is exposed as an unnecessary extra, a concept that divides awareness into subject and object. But there is actually no division like that present. It is just a useful tool for communication.

Does this address your question?
If it were my question, your answer really does not address it.
Since you've raised it, do you care to elaborate?
Just awareness?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Dan74 »

What else?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:What else?
And what is awareness?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Dan74 »

As far as I can tell awareness is the fundamental, it defies description.

My point in the above was to say that this preoccupation with "I" who is doing it all should either be done properly like in hua-tou meditation or in analysing what is not "I" as in Theravada or simply put aside while practicing mindfulness. Conventional preoccupation with it as in infinite regress is not productive.

Is this really contentious?
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