Soul theories and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Caodemarte
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Caodemarte »

No_Mind wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Worshippers of Yahweh form 3.8 billion people. The other three categories constitute 1.8 billion. As for Nigerians, 90% of them worship Yahweh.
How do 3.8 billion worship Yahweh?

India and China alone have 2.7 billion people. You mean everyone else is a Christian?

Show your source that Nigeria is 90% Christian.

Here is my source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nigeria
Islam accepts the "Old " and "New Testament" (although Muslims have their own interpretations and the Koran "corrects" what is believed to be misreported stories from both). For Muslims, Allah is the only God and therefore must be the same God as the one that the Jews and Christians worship as Yahweh. So if Nigeria is 45 per cent Muslim and 45 per cent Christian then yes,90 per cent would beleive they worshiped Yahweh.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

No_Mind wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
No_Mind wrote:That is specious reasoning.

Muslims know God by name of Allah. Please visit a nearby mosque and shout Allah is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and let us see what happens.

Please, please .. a kalyanmitta requests you .. you cannot refuse :hug: ..
You just don't know enough about Abrahamic religions.

Three world religions worship the God of Abraham. How one should perform this worship and how one should think of Him is disagreed upon by these three religions, but they all definitely point to and describe the same spiritual figure in their God: the God of Abraham.

In the ancient Jewish literature, the God of Abraham has two names: יהוה Ywhw, often rendered in English as Jehovah/Yahweh, and אל El, which usually appears in the Royal Plural, as אֱלֹהִים Elohim.

The Muslims only use one of these two names: El. الله‎ Allāh is the same word as El, simply in the language of Classical Arabic, rather than in Hebrew, and both of these names, simply mean "the God".

All of these religions worship one figure, who is understood to be the "One God", who is also the "God of Abraham".

That is why they are called "Abrahamic religions"
I also use internet for reference. I also know that. Knowledge is democratic in 21st century.

But explain your contradictory posts first.

Yes Christian no not Christian ..
I explained that here
Coëmgenu wrote:Christianity is the most common religion worldwide in that is has the most practitioners of any other individual religions. Sorry if I was not clear enough.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by No_Mind »

Caodemarte wrote: Islam accepts the "Old " and "New Testament" (although Muslims have their own interpretations and the Koran "corrects" what is believed to be misreported stories from both). For Muslims, Allah is the only God and therefore must be the same God as the one that the Jews and Christians worship as Yahweh. So if Nigeria is 45 per cent Muslim and 45 per cent Christian then yes,90 per cent would beleive they worshiped Yahweh.
Then I claim Buddhism to be a school of Hinduism (a position I declared as untenable two pages back since it was incorrect even if fringe Hindus spout it regularly) since the words Karma, Dharma, Samsara all appeared in brahmanical texts first.

You keep your share I will keep mine .. happy? :jumping:

This is how good and benevolent dictators should meet and split up the world .. peacefully and with equivalent measure of hubris.
Last edited by No_Mind on Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

No_Mind wrote:
Caodemarte wrote: Islam accepts the "Old " and "New Testament" (although Muslims have their own interpretations and the Koran "corrects" what is believed to be misreported stories from both). For Muslims, Allah is the only God and therefore must be the same God as the one that the Jews and Christians worship as Yahweh. So if Nigeria is 45 per cent Muslim and 45 per cent Christian then yes,90 per cent would beleive they worshiped Yahweh.
Then I claim Buddhism to be a school of Hinduism since the words Karma, Dharma, Samsara all appeared in brahmanical texts first.
You keep your share I will keep mine .. happy? :jumping:

This is how good and benevolent dictators should meet and split up the world .. peacefully and with equivalent measure of hubris.
I already said they are all grouped under one heading under other perspectives too. They are all called "Dharmic religions". Which corresponds with your definition of "Hindu" that you use to group these religions. I never said that Buddhism wasn't a "Hindu religion" using the definitions you put forth. I actually agreed with you a few posts back on that issue. Whether you want to call these religions "Hindu" or "Dharmic" is a matter of cultural background, it seems. "Hindu" is confusing terminology for the West, but the East, and Hindus, are quite free to use the term by their own definitions to their hearts' content.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by No_Mind »

Coëmgenu wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
Caodemarte wrote: Islam accepts the "Old " and "New Testament" (although Muslims have their own interpretations and the Koran "corrects" what is believed to be misreported stories from both). For Muslims, Allah is the only God and therefore must be the same God as the one that the Jews and Christians worship as Yahweh. So if Nigeria is 45 per cent Muslim and 45 per cent Christian then yes,90 per cent would beleive they worshiped Yahweh.
Then I claim Buddhism to be a school of Hinduism since the words Karma, Dharma, Samsara all appeared in brahmanical texts first.
You keep your share I will keep mine .. happy? :jumping:

This is how good and benevolent dictators should meet and split up the world .. peacefully and with equivalent measure of hubris.
I already said they are all grouped under one heading under other perspectives too. They are all called "Dharmic religions". Which corresponds with your definition of "Hindu" that you use to group these religions. I never said that Buddhism wasn't a "Hindu religion" using the definitions you put forth. I actually agreed with you a few posts back on that issue. Whether you want to call these religions "Hindu" or "Dharmic" is a matter of cultural background, it seems. "Hindu" is confusing terminology for the West, but the East, and Hindus, are quite free to use the term by their own definitions to their hearts' content.
No, no I am more hard line now in response to your position. If your position is that Muslims worship Yahweh, then Buddha was a Hindu and Buddhism is a Hindu offshoot is my position from five minutes ago.

See what happens if you take hard line stance based on specious reasoning?
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

No_Mind wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:I already said they are all grouped under one heading under other perspectives too. They are all called "Dharmic religions". Which corresponds with your definition of "Hindu" that you use to group these religions. I never said that Buddhism wasn't a "Hindu religion" using the definitions you put forth. I actually agreed with you a few posts back on that issue. Whether you want to call these religions "Hindu" or "Dharmic" is a matter of cultural background, it seems. "Hindu" is confusing terminology for the West, but the East, and Hindus, are quite free to use the term by their own definitions to their hearts' content.
No, no I am more hard line now in response to your position. If your position is that Muslims worship Yahweh, then Buddha was a Hindu and Buddhism is a Hindu offshoot is my position from five minutes ago.

See what happens if you take hard line stance based on specious reasoning?
If Buddha was a Hindu, then he was probably a Hindu heretic by many of the definitions of the time, and possibly by the definitions of many Hindus alive today who are engaged and aware of their practices and beliefs. Some Hindus may consider Buddha not to be a heretic, and that is fine. I'm not in charge of anyone's beliefs. But it doesn't change the fact that most followers of Buddha believe certain Hindu beliefs and practices to be wrong.

And it is ok if Buddha is a heretic in Hinduism. It is ok if Buddhists reject some beliefs in Hinduism. That is why they are usually considered different religions. They can still be considered related religions while still being different.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by No_Mind »

Coëmgenu wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:I already said they are all grouped under one heading under other perspectives too. They are all called "Dharmic religions". Which corresponds with your definition of "Hindu" that you use to group these religions. I never said that Buddhism wasn't a "Hindu religion" using the definitions you put forth. I actually agreed with you a few posts back on that issue. Whether you want to call these religions "Hindu" or "Dharmic" is a matter of cultural background, it seems. "Hindu" is confusing terminology for the West, but the East, and Hindus, are quite free to use the term by their own definitions to their hearts' content.
No, no I am more hard line now in response to your position. If your position is that Muslims worship Yahweh, then Buddha was a Hindu and Buddhism is a Hindu offshoot is my position from five minutes ago.

See what happens if you take hard line stance based on specious reasoning?
If Buddha was a Hindu, then he was probably a Hindu heretic by the definitions of the time, and possibly by the definitions of many Hindus alive today who are engaged and aware of their practices and beliefs. Some Hindus may consider Buddha not to be a heretic, and that is fine. I'm not in charge of anyone's beliefs. But it doesn't change the fact that most followers of Buddha believe certain Hindu beliefs and practices to be wrong.

And it is ok if Buddha is a heretic in Hinduism. It is ok if Buddhists reject some beliefs in Hinduism. That is why they are usually considered different religions. They can still be considered related religions while still being different.
I was joking. I would not take that position ever. He was not a Hindu and even if he was born as one (no clear indication) he abandoned it. Buddhism is not Hinduism.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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After comparing the Allah of the Qur’an and the Yahweh of the Bible, it should be apparent that they could not be referring to the same God. Either the Muslim Allah is the true God or the Christian Yahweh is the true God, or neither is true. As the Law of non-Contradiction teaches, they both cannot be true. One thing should be sure, though, the God of Muhammad cannot be the Father of Jesus.

http://www.ciu.edu/content/allah-islam- ... ristianity
That is content on website of a biblical university https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_ ... University

:jumping:

Ergo opining that --
The problem with this is that, for the vast majority of people, when they hear the word "God" they think Abrahamic God and if you go around using that word, most people assume that is what you mean, because of the natural conventions of language.
is proven to be hubris (not picking a fight with you Javi)

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

No_Mind wrote:
After comparing the Allah of the Qur’an and the Yahweh of the Bible, it should be apparent that they could not be referring to the same God. Either the Muslim Allah is the true God or the Christian Yahweh is the true God, or neither is true. As the Law of non-Contradiction teaches, they both cannot be true. One thing should be sure, though, the God of Muhammad cannot be the Father of Jesus.

http://www.ciu.edu/content/allah-islam- ... ristianity
That is content on website of a biblical university https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_ ... University

:jumping:

Ergo opining that --
The problem with this is that, for the vast majority of people, when they hear the word "God" they think Abrahamic God and if you go around using that word, most people assume that is what you mean, because of the natural conventions of language.
is proven to be hubris (not picking a fight with you Javi)

:namaste:
This is an opinion that is considered heretical by most Christians worldwide, that Christians and Jews and Muslims worship different Gods. It is very popular in certain Islamophobic Evangelical groups.

The Abrahamic faiths simply have highly diverse theologies with correspondingly highly diverse revelations stemmed through alleged contact with the One God, which specify some different definitions of what appropriate ways to view God are, and how to worship God correctly. Most Christians internationally believe that Muslims worship the same God as them, particularly in the Middle East, where Islam and Christianity have coexisted in close quarters for longer than the traditions have in America or Europe.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Allah is not the God of the Bible.
http://www.menorah.org/allahtrc.html
From the word "menorah" I guess the website is representative of Jewish faith

Umm .. seems I have won this game, set, match.

You would not believe conservative Christians, conservative Jews .. who is left in your corner. Rest of the Westerners are liberal atheists who do not believe in any God.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Our brief examination of Allah as presented in the Quran leads us to conclude that he cannot possibly be the same God worshiped by Abraham and as described in the Holy Bible. The contradictions in attributes and nature between Yahweh and Allah are too numerous to pass over, and cannot be reconciled.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm
I have thrown in a website representing Islamic point of view for good measure.

Game, set, match, championship all with me.

Christians deny, Jews deny, Muslims deny .. now really no one in your corner .. :guns:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

No_Mind wrote:
Allah is not the God of the Bible.
http://www.menorah.org/allahtrc.html
From the word "menorah" I guess the website is representative of Jewish faith

Umm .. seems I have won this game, set, match.

You would not believe conservative Christians, conservative Jews .. who is left ..
The Catholic Church consists of 2 billion Christians worldwide. They have this to say on the matter
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
(Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution, Nostra aetate)
There is also this:
The common belief in the Almighty professed by millions calls down upon this continent the graces of his Providence and love, most of all, peace and unity among all its sons. We feel sure that as representatives of Islam, you join in our prayers to the Almighty, that he may grant all African believers the desire for pardon and reconciliation so often commended in the Gospels and in the Qur’an.
(Paul VI, address to the Islamic communities of Uganda, August 1, 1969)

The second largest group of Christians worldwide is the Eastern Orthodox Church, of which the Russian Orthodox Church has the most adherents by far, they have a looser internal organization, this what the Russian Patriarch, His Holiness Alexius II of Moscow and All Russia, has to say, and who has never been reprimanded by any other orthodox popes for:
Christians and Muslims have many similar aims, and we can unite our efforts to achieve them. However, this unity will not occur if we fail to clarify our understanding of each other’s religious values. In this connection, I welcome the desire of the Muslim community to begin a sincere and open dialogue with representatives of Christians Churches on a serious scholarly and intellectual level.

Christianity and Islam are engaged today in a very important task in the world. They seek to remind humanity of the existence of God and of the spiritual dimension present both in man and the world. We bear witness to the interdependence of peace and justice, morality and law, truth and love.


You can look up countless examples of Jewish rabbis admitting that Christians and Muslims worship the same God as they, but you won't find one saying they do it right. Same as for mainstream Islam that isn't Saudi-sponsoured Wahhabism, the Qurʾān itself states that all three religions worship the same God.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by No_Mind »

Coëmgenu wrote:The Catholic Church consists of 2 billion Christians worldwide.

I fact checked the first line. Err 1.27 billion. Shall I fact check the rest of the post?

You cannot win this one.

In this case opinion of liberal Christians do not count

Opinion of core Christians, core Jewish, core Muslims count. We are looking for unpleasant facts .. not pleasant ones; so by definition of this debate, the rules of engagement if you will .. opinion of doves are rejected. Doves will always want unification.
We are looking for what divides not what unites in this debate.
Last edited by No_Mind on Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

No_Mind wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:The Catholic Church consists of 2 billion Christians worldwide.

I fact checked the first line. Err 1.27 billion. Shall I fact check the rest of the post?
Go ahead. This is my source for my 2 billion figure <http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/con ... mbers.html>.

Do you want a sūrah reference for my claim about al-Qurʾān? There are plenty.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
No_Mind
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by No_Mind »

Coëmgenu wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:The Catholic Church consists of 2 billion Christians worldwide.

I fact checked the first line. Err 1.27 billion. Shall I fact check the rest of the post?
Go ahead. This is my source for my 2 billion figure <http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/con ... mbers.html>, obvious they made have a reason to want to round up, but thats where I got it.

Do you want a sūrah reference for my claim about al-Qurʾān? There are plenty.
Here is my source -- "Pontifical Yearbook 2016 and the Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae 2014: dynamics of a Church in transformation, 05.03.2016"

.. impressive enough name? Note the press vatican va domain

https://press.vatican.va/content/salast ... 0305b.html
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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