Patanjali and the Jhanas

[dhammarelax]

Dear Friends

I have contradicting reports regarding this and I wanted to ask, does Patanjali teaches Jhanas or not?

Smile
dhammarelax

[mikenz66]

Which Pantajali?

Someone historical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patanjali or current?


Mike

[dhammarelax]

Which Pantajali?

Someone historical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patanjali or current?


Mike

Historical: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutr ... m.C4.81dhi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JiWe]

There's some related speculation in these two 20 page articles:

Cousins, 1992, Vitakka/vitarka and vicāra - Stages of samādhi in Buddhism and Yoga
http://www.academia.edu/1417363/Vitakka ... ic%C4%81ra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maas, 2009, The So-called Yoga of Suppression in the Pātañjala Yogaśāstra
http://www.academia.edu/210373/The_So-c ... %C4%81stra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The later texts do not depart radically from this understanding. Such
differences as we do find are simply due to the need to conform to the
requirements of theory. For the Vaibhasikas and Buddhaghosa this means
conformity to strict momentariness and precise definition as distinct
dharmas. For the Yoga-sutra, and even more for its commentaries, the
stages of samadhi need to be related to the levels of Samkhya evolution.

-Cousins, p.153

[samseva]

The jhānas aren't Buddhist, they are states of mind. It would be no surprise at all if people can reach jhāna with the Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali or non-Buddhist forms of meditation or yogic disciplines. Dhyana is also directly practiced with the Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali.

[ryanM]

The jhānas aren't Buddhist, they are states of mind. It would be no surprise at all if people can reach jhāna with the Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali or non-Buddhist forms of meditation or yogic disciplines. Dhyana is also directly practiced with the Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali.

States of absorption certainly aren't the domain of Buddhist practice. Neither are what other traditions might call dhyana/jhana/yana. However, the Buddha defined jhana in terms of the eightfold path, meaning that right view is a prerequisite. What the Buddha defines as jhana is exclusive to 'Buddhism' or to the practice of the noble eightfold path. Now, anyone can practice the eightfold path, so it's not like a 'christian' couldn't 'obtain' jhana. I think this type of conclusion can be made after seeing what the Buddha had to say about his previous teachers' teaching and the type of absorption/dhyana/jhana they taught. It seems when he was sitting under the rose apple tree, his meditation was informed by right view. At least this is the conclusion I've come to!

[dhammarelax]

There's some related speculation in these two 20 page articles:

Cousins, 1992, Vitakka/vitarka and vicāra - Stages of samādhi in Buddhism and Yoga
http://www.academia.edu/1417363/Vitakka ... ic%C4%81ra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maas, 2009, The So-called Yoga of Suppression in the Pātañjala Yogaśāstra
http://www.academia.edu/210373/The_So-c ... %C4%81stra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The later texts do not depart radically from this understanding. Such
differences as we do find are simply due to the need to conform to the
requirements of theory. For the Vaibhasikas and Buddhaghosa this means
conformity to strict momentariness and precise definition as distinct
dharmas. For the Yoga-sutra, and even more for its commentaries, the
stages of samadhi need to be related to the levels of Samkhya evolution.

-Cousins, p.153

Thanks.

[samseva]

States of absorption certainly aren't the domain of Buddhist practice. Neither are what other traditions might call dhyana/jhana/yana. However, the Buddha defined jhana in terms of the eightfold path, meaning that right view is a prerequisite. What the Buddha defines as jhana is exclusive to 'Buddhism' or to the practice of the noble eightfold path. Now, anyone can practice the eightfold path, so it's not like a 'christian' couldn't 'obtain' jhana. I think this type of conclusion can be made after seeing what the Buddha had to say about his previous teachers' teaching and the type of absorption/dhyana/jhana they taught. It seems when he was sitting under the rose apple tree, his meditation was informed by right view. At least this is the conclusion I've come to!

I'm not sure about the jhāna requiring right view part. Are you sure you aren't talking about vipassanā? Or sammā-samādhi (right concentration) rather than sammā-diṭṭhi (right view)?

[dhammarelax]

States of absorption certainly aren't the domain of Buddhist practice. Neither are what other traditions might call dhyana/jhana/yana. However, the Buddha defined jhana in terms of the eightfold path, meaning that right view is a prerequisite. What the Buddha defines as jhana is exclusive to 'Buddhism' or to the practice of the noble eightfold path. Now, anyone can practice the eightfold path, so it's not like a 'christian' couldn't 'obtain' jhana. I think this type of conclusion can be made after seeing what the Buddha had to say about his previous teachers' teaching and the type of absorption/dhyana/jhana they taught. It seems when he was sitting under the rose apple tree, his meditation was informed by right view. At least this is the conclusion I've come to!

I'm not sure about the jhāna requiring right view part. Are you sure you aren't talking about vipassanā? Or sammā-samādhi (right concentration) rather than sammā-diṭṭhi (right view)?

Remember that right view is not only "the right ideas" like there is father and mother, what is given etc. but is also the 4 noble truths and also observing the rise and cessation of the links of dependent origination, this last one is accessible universally hence Jhana based on right view can be achieved universally given that there is enough observation power to be able to see at least one pair of the links.

smile all the time
dhammarelax

[JohnK]

Based on the title of this thread, I thought it was intended for the "what music are you listening to" discussion.
(Sorry, I have kept it under control here, but I am a bit of a goofaholic myself.)

[samseva]

Remember that right view is not only "the right ideas" like there is father and mother, what is given etc. but is also the 4 noble truths and also observing the rise and cessation of the links of dependent origination, this last one is accessible universally hence Jhana based on right view can be achieved universally given that there is enough observation power to be able to see at least one pair of the links.

Maybe, but right view isn't a prerequisite for jhāna is what I was saying.

[dhammarelax]

Remember that right view is not only "the right ideas" like there is father and mother, what is given etc. but is also the 4 noble truths and also observing the rise and cessation of the links of dependent origination, this last one is accessible universally hence Jhana based on right view can be achieved universally given that there is enough observation power to be able to see at least one pair of the links.

Maybe, but right view isn't a prerequisite for jhāna is what I was saying.

MN 117 seems to differ: "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites. Listen and attend closely to what I shall say.”—“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“What, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites."

But seeing and letting go to the link craving - clinging is not that hard, everybody can see with them mental eye the thoughts no?

smile
dhammarelax

[samseva]

MN 117 seems to differ: "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites. Listen and attend closely to what I shall say.”—“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“What, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites."

MN 117 says the factors listed are supports and requisites. All are supports, but not necessarily prerequisites. I am pretty sure one can enter jhāna without right view. Hinduism is filled with jhāna practices and practitioners, with some probably not having right view. At least, complete right view is not needed, that is for sure, since right view can be completely absent or in very varying degrees.

[katavedi]

Based on the title of this thread, I thought it was intended for the "what music are you listening to" discussion.
(Sorry, I have kept it under control here, but I am a bit of a goofaholic myself.)

They sound so much better on vinyl...

[dhammarelax]

Based on the title of this thread, I thought it was intended for the "what music are you listening to" discussion.
(Sorry, I have kept it under control here, but I am a bit of a goofaholic myself.)

They sound so much better on vinyl...

A new age success, somebody please copyright it before Wisdom Pubs do.

smile
dhammarelax