The third noble truth

[Aloka]

What is the "uncaused" or the "unconditioned" in Buddhism if there is such a thing?

Excerpt from the section "Towards the Unconditioned" in Ajahn Chah's "Living Dhamma":

The Buddha talked about sankhata dhammas and asankhata dhammas — conditioned and unconditioned things. Conditioned things are innumerable — material or immaterial, big or small — if our mind is under the influence of delusion, it will proliferate about these things, dividing them up into good and bad, short and long, coarse and refined. Why does the mind proliferate like this? Because it doesn't know determined reality, [25] it doesn't see the Dhamma.

Not seeing the Dhamma, the mind is full of clinging. As long as the mind is held down by clinging there can be no escape, there is confusion, birth, old age, sickness and death, even in the thinking processes. This kind of mind is called the sankhata dhamma (conditioned mind).

Asankhata dhamma, the unconditioned, refers to the mind which has seen the Dhamma, the truth, of the Five Khandhas as they are — as Transient, Imperfect and Ownerless. All ideas of "me" and "them," "mine" and "theirs," belong to the determined reality. Really they are all conditions. When we know the truth of conditions, as neither ourselves nor belonging to us, we let go of conditions and the determined.

When we let go of conditions we attain the Dhamma, we enter into and realize the Dhamma. When we attain the Dhamma we know clearly. What do we know? We know that there are only conditions and determinations, no being, no self, no "us" nor "them." This is knowledge of the way things are.

Seeing in this way the mind transcends things. The body may grow old, get sick and die, but the mind transcends this state. When the mind transcends conditions, it knows the unconditioned. the mind becomes the unconditioned, the state which no longer contains conditioning factors.

The mind is no longer conditioned by the concerns of the world, conditions no longer contaminate the mind. Pleasure and pain no longer affect it. Nothing can affect the mind or change it, the mind is assured, it has escaped all constructions. Seeing the true nature of conditions and the determined, the mind becomes free.

This freed mind is called the Unconditioned, that which is beyond the power of constructing influences. If the mind doesn't really know conditions and determinations, it is moved by them. Encountering good, bad, pleasure, or pain, it proliferates about them. Why does it proliferate? Because there is still a cause.

What is the cause? The cause is the understanding that the body is one's self or belongs to the self; that feelings are self or belonging to self; that perception is self or belonging to self; that conceptual thought is self or belonging to self; that consciousness is self or belonging to self. The tendency to conceive things in terms of self is the source of happiness, suffering, birth, old age, sickness and death. This is the worldly mind, spinning around and changing at the directives of worldly conditions. This is the conditioned mind.

If we receive some windfall our mind is conditioned by it. That object influences our mind into a feeling of pleasure, but when it disappears, our mind is conditioned by it into suffering. The mind becomes a slave of conditions, a slave of desire. No matter what the world presents to it, the mind is moved accordingly. This mind has no refuge, it is not yet assured of itself, not yet free. It is still lacking a firm base. This mind doesn't yet know the truth of conditions. Such is the conditioned mind.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... tml#toward

[Bundokji]

Excerpt from the section "Towards the Unconditioned" in Ajahn Chah's "Living Dhamma":

Thanks Aloka, what you quoted is very beneficial, but to be honest, it did not make me less confused.

Seeing in this way the mind transcends things. The body may grow old, get sick and die, but the mind transcends this state. When the mind transcends conditions, it knows the unconditioned. the mind becomes the unconditioned, the state which no longer contains conditioning factors.

The mind is no longer conditioned by the concerns of the world, conditions no longer contaminate the mind. Pleasure and pain no longer affect it. Nothing can affect the mind or change it, the mind is assured, it has escaped all constructions. Seeing the true nature of conditions and the determined, the mind becomes free.

This freed mind is called the Unconditioned, that which is beyond the power of constructing influences. If the mind doesn't really know conditions and determinations, it is moved by them. Encountering good, bad, pleasure, or pain, it proliferates about them. Why does it proliferate? Because there is still a cause.

When we say something is "unconditioned", what do we exactly mean? From my limited understanding, and please correct me if i am wrong, it means "uncaused" or having "independent existence", right?

In addition, when we talk about knowledge of conditions and determinations, dont you agree that all knowledge is linked to memory, and memory itself is not reliable and can be lost? is there any knowledge which you know of that is not the function of the memory?

On the other hand, Buddhism deny the existence of an "independent self" or a "soul", so if the "unconditioned" in Buddhism is not a soul, what is the exact difference between it and the soul?

Can it be the case that the Buddha knew that mentioning a soul would be counter productive hence he decided not to talk about it for pragmatic reasons? i am not making a statement here but asking a genuine question.

Thanks

[SarathW]

Take a thread and make a knot. That is the conditioned, because you created it.
Then undo the knot. It is the unconditioned. Because there is no knot.

If you apply this to Buddha's teaching:
The five aggregates are the various threads.
The body (a unit consist of five aggregate) is the knot.
The process of un doing (un knotting ) is the Noble Eight Fold Path.
Nibbana is the stage after un knotting.

[Bundokji]

Take a thread and make a knot. That is the conditioned, because you created it.
Then undo the knot. It is the unconditioned. Because there is no knot.

This is a nice analogy but as long as the thread is there, then there is always the possibility that a knot can be created again.

I have had this issue in my mind for very long, and whenever i wanted to investigate it i feel uncomfortable.

[SarathW]

But it is not the same knot!
There is no person to make the knot again.
You are liberated.

[Bundokji]

But it is not the same knot!
There is no person to make the knot again.
You are liberated.

Your statement sound like: there was a person, and upon enlightenment this person disappeared!

When a newly born child comes to this world, its very likely that he comes as a thread without a knot, and the knot is created later through social conditioning.

Once again, to make it simple and straightforward. Liberation is attained through certain type of knowledge (end of ignorance), and as far as we understand, knowledge is linked to memory (if you see something for the first time you simply dont know it, so to recognized delusion as delusion you have to use memory). Memory is unreliable and is not self, hence i dont understand how a permanent end of suffering is attainable. Any other replies that does not address the crux of the matter or does not point out where i got things wrong wont help much in my opinion.

Peace

[daverupa]

but the aggregates remain intact after nibbana and the Arahant continue to use them until the final break up of the aggregates (as you choose to call death )

Well, the aggregates are no longer subject to clinging, so that's a different case than a non-arahant's clinging-aggregates.

Have you ever wondered how ignorance started?

It's an unconjecturable sort of topic, with no benefit to speculation about it. Stretching one's imagination about it is not the way to investigate the Dhamma.

Original sin has nothing to do with the Dhamma; metaphorical readings of Abrahamic religions have no application here.

In addition, the Buddha said:

Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase.

Citation? Context?

I have heard that even Arahants continue to meditate. The Buddha himself used to allocate some of his time for meditation.

But at the same time as that is said, it is said that arahants have nothing further to do, and that it's done as a wholesome & pleasant way to pass the time.

Finally, there have been few encounters between Mara and the Buddha post enlightenment, so I wonder (metaphorically speaking) why would Mara waste his time trying to tempt the Buddha after his enlightenment?

Is it really worth the time going through these speculative gyrations? I fail to see what you're driving at... this last post to me didn't even address what I've been saying to you...

[freedom]

I can imagine emptying a cup, but I still don't see why the cup can not be filled again, at least in theory.

If you emptied the cup, crushed it to dusk and threw it away. Can you ever be able to refill that same cup?

[SarathW]

But it is not the same knot!
There is no person to make the knot again.
You are liberated.

Your statement sound like: there was a person, and upon enlightenment this person disappeared!

When a newly born child comes to this world, its very likely that he comes as a thread without a knot, and the knot is created later through social conditioning.

Once again, to make it simple and straightforward. Liberation is attained through certain type of knowledge (end of ignorance), and as far as we understand, knowledge is linked to memory (if you see something for the first time you simply dont know it, so to recognized delusion as delusion you have to use memory). Memory is unreliable and is not self, hence i dont understand how a permanent end of suffering is attainable. Any other replies that does not address the crux of the matter or does not point out where i got things wrong wont help much in my opinion.

Peace

- There is no person, but the ignorance is there. I making and my making is the result of ignorance
- Newly born child is already a knot. We started making the knot (ignorance) in the inconceivable past, according to Buddha
- Wisdom and memory are two different things. You should familiar with the teaching of Anussaya (latent dispositions)
- Let the knot disintegrate naturally. Do not make any knots or renew the existing one. That is how you end suffering.

[Bundokji]

Well, the aggregates are no longer subject to clinging, so that's a different case than a non-arahant's clinging-aggregates.

Is not clinging itself conditioned hence the end of clinging cannot be permanent? Most of us can experience freedom from clinging for brief moments, but our minds can cling again, and I still don't see why an Arahant is an exception.

If an Arahnat used to think that "this aggregate is mine" then he knew that "this aggregate is not-self" then he might forget or get confused again, because the very understanding of the truth happens through the aggregates.

My point is clear yet I am not getting clear answer: Nibbana will have to be known or experienced through the aggregates, so that knowledge itself is unreliable because its gained through an unreliable medium.

Is nibbana dependent from the aggregates? if so, how is it known to us?

It's an unconjecturable sort of topic, with no benefit to speculation about it. Stretching one's imagination about it is not the way to investigate the Dhamma.

Original sin has nothing to do with the Dhamma; metaphorical readings of Abrahamic religions have no application here.

This is unfair. Curiosity and thinking outside the box can help us conveying a message. I thought you would be more appreciative of this approach, but obviously I was wrong.

Citation? Context?

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/dp20.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wisdom can increase and decrease. You present that wisdom upon enlightenment is a fixed thing (is it not) I offered a proof from the dhammapada that this is not accurate.

But at the same time as that is said, it is said that arahants have nothing further to do, and that it's done as a wholesome & pleasant way to pass the time.

Well, that sounds odd that they still "seek" pleasure post enlightenment!!

Is it really worth the time going through these speculative gyrations? I fail to see what you're driving at... this last post to me didn't even address what I've been saying to you

Its not speculative, there are few examples of Mara attempting to temp the Buddha post enlightenment. What is speculative whether Mara is an actual being or just an allegory (hence I avoided to do that)

Before you claim that I have not addressed what you have been saying, just make sure that we understand each other. You are trying to avoid the whole issue by implying that the aggregate without clinging are no longer subject to clinging, and my answer is simply: that does not make them any less conditioned whether they are subject to clinging or not subject to clinging.

Peace

[Bundokji]

I can imagine emptying a cup, but I still don't see why the cup can not be filled again, at least in theory.

If you emptied the cup, crushed it to dusk and threw it away. Can you ever be able to refill that same cup?

False analogy. The human agent does not disappear upon enlightenment and he continues to experience this life through mind and body.

If an ignorant mind can become a wise mind through certain conditioned, then at least in theory, its not impossible that it can become ignorant again through conditions.

Peace

[Bundokji]

- Wisdom and memory are two different things. You should familiar with the teaching of Anussaya (latent dispositions)

Hello SarathW,

I agree, Wisdom is not memory. But can you explain how can there be wisdom without memory?

For wisdom to arise, a certain knowledge must be obtained, and knowledge is dependent on memory. If this knowledge disappears / lost, then I don't see how wisdom can be maintained?

Peace

[freedom]

I can imagine emptying a cup, but I still don't see why the cup can not be filled again, at least in theory.

If you emptied the cup, crushed it to dusk and threw it away. Can you ever be able to refill that same cup?

False analogy. The human agent does not disappear upon enlightenment and he continues to experience this life through mind and body.

If an ignorant mind can become a wise mind through certain conditioned, then at least in theory, its not impossible that it can become ignorant again through conditions.

Peace

Unless you can overcome or understand self-view, it is hard to understand this concept.

[daverupa]

You are trying to avoid the whole issue by implying that the aggregate without clinging are no longer subject to clinging

That's a tautology...

and my answer is simply: that does not make them any less conditioned whether they are subject to clinging or not subject to clinging.

...and this doesn't matter; why do you think it does? I already said that the final breakup of these aggregates occurs for an arahant, because those aggregates are conditioned & there is no more fuel for new aggregates.

You aren't making much sense here...

[Bundokji]

That's a tautology...

No its not you can let go of something and then attach to it again, its as simple as that. Its a mental process, nothing complicated, and people do that all the time, you can see that from day to day observation.

Now, if you say that post enlightenment, the aggregates cease to exist, that would be an annihilationist view.

If you can turn water into steam under certain conditions, steam can be turned back into water under different conditions.

Enlightenment if I am not mistaken is a transformation from one state to another, and in a process of transformation, there is nothing that is irreversible.

I have been reading your posts for long time, and i noticed that you quote the raft simile quite a lot, and in it is a proof of my point: Why would the Buddha advice his disciple to let go of the raft after reaching the other shore? maybe because there is a possibility of clinging again? If its all clear and straightforward as you are implying, why would the Buddha bother and come up with the simile in the first place? why would he state the obvious that is according to you: there is nothing more to be done?

and this doesn't matter; why do you think it does?

Of course it does! A conditioned phenomena is subject to change. The human body and mind are subject to change. Nibbana, whether it has an independent existence or not, it has to be perceived/known by body or mind.

Can there be knowledge without the mind/memory? if so, please explain.

Some might argue that we are already in nibbana or enlightened but we don't know it (I am sure you encountered such statements) so its knowledge that makes the difference between an enlightened being and unenlightened being, no?

And this is the point that you keep on avoiding: Knowledge!

How can there be a reliable/unchanging knowledge that has to be perceived/experienced by the human mind/body? If you can explain this, only this, my confusion will come to an end.

Peace