Buddhists are wrong about pleasure/enjoyment

[Detective L Ryuzaki]

I do not agree at all with any other definition of pleasure/enjoyment Buddhists or other people say we can have in our lives with our reward system turned off due to depression and/or anhedonia. Since I do not agree with it...

You are talking to yourself here, addressing strawmen left and right.

Sure, there's all sorts of ways the biological imperative can be messed up, as I already said, but you aren't even engaging with Buddhist definitions in the first place, so there's no dialogue. You even sprinkled in the wiggle-phrase "or other people" in there, just so you could avoid answering my question to you about the Buddhist theory you say you understand, but which you can't correctly describe.

Finally, you don't have a scientific understanding of pleasure/pain. What you have is an adherence to a version of scientism.

Lots to untangle, Matt. Good luck with all that.

So let's instead talk about science here. You say that I do not have a scientific understanding of what pleasure/pain are. Therefore, you are saying here that there is a different version of pleasure, pain, and enjoyment besides our pleasant/unpleasant feelings/emotions. Could you please point to me the science that explains how other functions of our brains besides our reward system allows us to experience pleasure and enjoyment and how other functions of our brains besides our unpleasant feelings/emotions can allow us to experience suffering, despair, rage, fear, pain, etc?

[lionking]

I can never have any pleasure or enjoyment in my life either as long as I have depression and anhedonia which turns off my reward system.

- You have been diagnosed with clinical depression
- Your only way out - "the reward system" has been shut off by this condition.
- You do not believe Buddhist meditation and associated techniques replacing "the reward system"
- You know this, obviously after personal experience attempting a few times.

Well, have you taken any medication? Chemical imbalances may prevent your brain looking for a solution other than "the reward system".
Meditation is hard even without depression and anhedonia. With your condition the complexity increases.
You give a lot of emphasis to a reward system. Its like blackmailing yourself to feel good when rewarded with a sensory overload.

The joy and contentment comes from a process of Obliquity (indirect). It comes as a byproduct of assisting others. Direct way to please yourself is not as joyful. Try to seek joy and contentment at a higher level i.e. without pleasing your senses. So how would you achieve this?

Give food to a beggar or volunteer to work with the elderly. When you give see the gratitude in their eyes.
Give blood to a blood bank knowing you have saved someones life.
Counsel and advise young people suffering family break ups and trauma.

Observe how you become happy as a result of your giving.

With Metta

[Detective L Ryuzaki]

I can never have any pleasure or enjoyment in my life either as long as I have depression and anhedonia which turns off my reward system.

- You have been diagnosed with clinical depression
- Your only way out - "the reward system" has been shut off by this condition.
- You do not believe Buddhist meditation and associated techniques replacing "the reward system"
- You know this, obviously after personal experience attempting a few times.

Well, have you taken any medication? Chemical imbalances may prevent your brain looking for a solution other than "the reward system".
Meditation is hard even without depression and anhedonia. With your condition the complexity increases.
You give a lot of emphasis to a reward system. Its like blackmailing yourself to feel good when rewarded with a sensory overload.

The joy and contentment comes from a process of Obliquity (indirect). It comes as a byproduct of assisting others. Direct way to please yourself is not as joyful. Try to seek joy and contentment at a higher level i.e. without pleasing your senses. So how would you achieve this?

Give food to a beggar or volunteer to work with the elderly. When you give see the gratitude in their eyes.
Give blood to a blood bank knowing you have saved someones life.
Counsel and advise young people suffering family break ups and trauma.

Observe how you become happy as a result of your giving.

With Metta

That indirect joy and pleasure you speak of is still a matter of our reward system. As long as your reward system is turned off, you cannot have any form of pleasure, joy, and enjoyment since all forms of pleasure, joy, and enjoyment all come down to science (our reward system). They all can only come from our pleasant feelings/emotions from our reward system. As for treatment, I am trying to address my phobias since they were the cause of this severe chronic 24/7 anhedonia (absence of all my pleasant feelings/emotions).

[daverupa]

You say that I do not have a scientific understanding of what pleasure/pain are. Therefore, you are saying here that there is a different version of pleasure, pain, and enjoyment besides our pleasant/unpleasant feelings/emotions.

Not at all. Please try to pay attention; and if you avoid answering my question about your understanding of Buddhist theory on this matter yet another time, I'll take that as an apology for your being unable to uphold the presumption of the thread's title.

[mal4mac]

Scientists, recently, have been inspired by Buddhist approaches to relieving depression. Try reading:

"The Mindful Way Through Depression" by Mark Williams & John Teasdale

[Detective L Ryuzaki]

You say that I do not have a scientific understanding of what pleasure/pain are. Therefore, you are saying here that there is a different version of pleasure, pain, and enjoyment besides our pleasant/unpleasant feelings/emotions.

Not at all. Please try to pay attention.

If you are saying that there is no other version of pleasure and enjoyment besides our pleasant feelings/emotions that come from our reward system, then you are clearly saying here that pleasure and enjoyment can only come from our biological imperative (our reward system). Unless this is not what you actually mean here. In that case, I am now completely open here. I am now listening here. So what is it that you are saying?

[lionking]

As for treatment, I am trying to address my phobias since they were the cause of this severe chronic 24/7 anhedonia (absence of all my pleasant feelings/emotions).

Well, the natural anti-dote to phobia is compassion. Fear does not live in a mind where compassion is cultivated.

There is a meditation technique called Loving-kindness Meditation - Instructions here.

It would seem to me that is the first port of call. Address the fears and perhaps your Anhedonia will be reduced/eliminated as a result.

[daverupa]

...

Sigh.

So, you aren't able to explain any aspect of Buddhist thought on this matter of feelings and pleasure?

[Detective L Ryuzaki]

...

Sigh.

So, you aren't able to explain any aspect of Buddhist thought on this matter of feelings and pleasure?

If I do, then it would all just be a matter of it all coming back down to science again (our reward system). All forms of pleasure and enjoyment, no matter what they are, would all come back down to science (our biological imperative which would be our reward system). So it would just be unnecessary for me to understand what the Buddhist definition of pleasure and enjoyment is in the first place since it would all just come back down to it being our reward system again. But I am free to hear what the Buddhist definition of pleasure and enjoyment is anyway. So go ahead and describe it to me and I will attempt to use my theory again to refute it.

[daverupa]

So it would just be unnecessary for me to understand what the Buddhist definition of pleasure and enjoyment is in the first place since it would all just come back down to it being our reward system again.

So, you don't know what Buddhists say about it, but you know they're wrong?

This is just asinine, Matt. I'm willing to try again, but it'll be in a different thread. This one is nearing the end of its life, I think... so far, it's been a mere cloak for a sub-par blog from you, and that's not something I have to provide space for.

[Detective L Ryuzaki]

So it would just be unnecessary for me to understand what the Buddhist definition of pleasure and enjoyment is in the first place since it would all just come back down to it being our reward system again.

So, you don't know what Buddhists say about it, but you know they're wrong?

This is just asinine, Matt. I'm willing to try again, but it'll be in a different thread. This one is nearing the end of its life, I think... so far, it's been a mere cloak for a sub-par blog from you, and that's not something I have to provide space for.

I think it would be unnecessary to create a new thread. We can still continue here. But just know that I am completely open to the possibility of me actually being wrong. My theory just says that the Buddhists are wrong. But I have no actual proof of that. So go ahead and explain to me the Buddhist's definition of pleasure and enjoyment. You are free to do so here. But if I really must create a new topic, then I guess I must do so then.

[Nicolas]

Dialog between Visakha the lay follower and Dhammadinna the nun:

- Now, lady, how many kinds of feeling are there?
- These three kinds of feeling: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, & neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling.
- What is pleasant feeling? What is painful feeling? What is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?
- Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as pleasant & gratifying is pleasant feeling. Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as painful & hurting is painful feeling. Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as neither gratifying nor hurting is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling.
- In what way is pleasant feeling pleasant, lady, and in what way painful?
- Pleasant feeling is pleasant in remaining, & painful in changing, friend Visakha. Painful feeling is painful in remaining & pleasant in changing. Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge.

[daverupa]

I think it would be unnecessary to create a new thread.

You said in this one that Buddhists were wrong, then admitted both that (1) you didn't know what they believed and that (2) you weren't confident that your theory was correct.

So, as far as I can tell, the thread is simply over as a natural result. The above post by Nicolas may help you start to learn about the Buddhist approach to this topic; probably what needs to happen is some reading and study, and then some reflection as you integrate this new knowledge with your old theory, in order to see what survives that process.

[Nicolas]

The pleasure of jhana is superior to any worldly pleasure. The hedonist would be drawn to jhana if he were made aware of it. (Detective: A jhana is a type of very deep meditative state that is described by the Buddha.)

Ananda, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure or happiness arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is called sensual pleasure. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"

[Detective L Ryuzaki]

I think it would be unnecessary to create a new thread.

You said in this one that Buddhists were wrong, then admitted both that (1) you didn't know what they believed and that (2) you weren't confident that your theory was correct.

So, as far as I can tell, the thread is simply over as a natural result. The above post by Nicolas may help you start to learn about the Buddhist approach to this topic; probably what needs to happen is some reading and study, and then some reflection as you integrate this new knowledge with your old theory, in order to see what survives that process.

Actually, I don't have time to read up entirely on the concept of Buddhism and such. I will read what is instead being presented to me here and I will discuss it all here. I wanted to have a full debate about my theory in order to find out the answer to my theory right here and now in this topic as to whether my theory really is true or not. I wanted to find out the answer as to whether I can really still have enjoyment and pleasure in my life despite my depression and anhedonia. I do not wish to find this answer out all on my own in which I have to study up months or even years on Buddhism. Instead, I wish to have a debate right here and now to find out this answer.

Therefore, point out the flaws you perceive in my theory and use explanations from the Buddhist concept of pleasure/enjoyment to attempt to refute my theory. Once you do that, then I will attempt to refute that in return using my theory. So with that being said, I will first read the explanations of the Buddhist concept of pleasure/enjoyment that have been presented to me right now in this topic. Then I will get back to you again and we can further our debate/discussion here.