It was probably past kamma...so what?

[phil]

Hi all

One thing I've noticed pretty consistently when going around Internet forums about Buddhism is that there is almost a kind of anger when it is suggested that bad experiences people have such as growing up in an abusive environment or having a painful disease are related to past kamma. It always feels like there is a rush to point out that there are other explanations for bad things that happen to us. I never quite understand this, what's so hard about accepting that since we have had countless lifetimes of course we have done a huge amount of bad kamma as well as good kamma, and of course the bad kamma has to play out. it's not because we are bad people. The good results of past actions are playing out in a very clear way as well after all we are here in the human realm discussing Dhamma, that's a very rare blessing.

I think about this topic a lot because my partner had an abusive childhood and she sometimes asks if it was because of her kamma. In her case since she doesn't have an interest in or appreciation of the Dhamma I kind of dodge the question and say that what's important is what she's doing now. But if we are discussing among people who appreciate and understand the Buddha's teaching what is so difficult about accepting that we all have bad past kamma that must play out, and it is not a reflection on our current goodness or lack of it.




Phil

[Dom]

Something tells me that it doesn't have so much to do with being upset about kamma, as much as it is painful to upset a stabilized identity-view.

Whether it's kamma or any sort of view that challenges an attached identity-view, there is pain in that conflict, and it's easier to turn away than turn towards why it hurts.

If my identity view is built on victimization, the idea of kamma challenges that. So, maybe I'm thinking, that it's not so much about difficult to accept the idea of kamma, but more about difficult to accept the idea that who-you-think-you-are is being taken from you without your permission, when you've been hanging on to it for so long, and investing time and energy into it.

I imagine building a huge house of cards, that could easily challenge the guinness book of world records for largest card house ever made. You spend years on this project, and it is your entire life, your baby. Then, someone comes along and wants to remove one of the bottom cards. It may be only one card of millions, just as kamma is only one view of many, but deep down you know doing so will make everything unstable, and that makes you feel uncomfortable, and uncomfortable people have a tendency to address what is making them uncomfortable with a variety of responses, including violence.

That's my two cents.

[Goofaholix]

Well, for a start Kamma means action.

So the Buddhist teaching is about action, or more specifically intentions motivating action.

It's not about speculating about possible causes and results leading to trhe current situation, this is taking the cart before the horse, it's about examining your current actions and the motivation behind them before you act.

The Buddha taught that "The precise working out of the results of kamma" is one of the imponderables that should not be pondered.

Other than it also comes from India the view of what Kamma is all about that you're asking about has little in common with Buddhadhamma.

[SarathW]

Kamma: advantageous or disadvantageous action; Sanskrit karma, Pāli: kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the advantageous and disadvantageous intentions kusala and akusala-cetanā and their concomitant mental properties, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. These kammical intentions kammacetanā become manifest as advantageous or disadvantageous actions by body kāya-kamma speech vacī-kamma and mind mano-kamma Thus the Buddhist term 'kamma' by no means signifies the result of actions, and quite certainly not the fate of man, or perhaps even of whole nations the so-called wholesale or mass-kamma, misconceptions which, through the influence of theosophy, have become widely spread in the West.

intention cetanā o Bhikkhus, is what I call action cetanāham bhikkhave kammam vadāmi for through intention one performs the action by body, speech or mind.. There is kamma action, o Bhikkhus, that ripens in hell. Kamma that ripens in the animal world.. Kamma that ripens in the world of men. Kamma that ripens in the divine world. Threefold, however, is the fruit of kamma: ripening during the life-time dittha-dhamma-vedanīya-kamma ripening in the next birth upapajja-vedanīya-kamma ripening in later births aparāpariya-vedanīya kamma... A.VI, 63.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_k.htm

[cooran]

Hello all,

Not everything is the result of previous kamma, see Pubbekatahetuvada in
Misunderstandings of the law of kamma by Ven. Payutto
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Kamma.htm

With metta,
Chris

[phil]

Hello all,

Not everything is the result of previous kamma, see Pubbekatahetuvada in
Misunderstandings of the law of kamma by Ven. Payutto
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Kamma.htm

With metta,
Chris

Thanks Chris, good clarification of what I himted at in the OP, not everything, there are other explanations. I'm going to change the title of the thread accordingly.
Thanks all for your comments so far. Yes, an imponderable, but it's an imponderable that many newcomers to Dhamma can unfortunately not get beyond, it seems.

Edit- past kamma not my kamma, you can see how easily that identity view takes over.


Phil

[culaavuso]

Not everything is the result of previous kamma, see Pubbekatahetuvada in
Misunderstandings of the law of kamma by Ven. Payutto
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Kamma.htm

The reference link within that page appears to be broken, but the reference appears to be AN 3.61: Titthāyatana Sutta. A similar discussion can be found in MN 101: Devadaha Sutta.

[pegembara]

What is done is done. The question is what you are going to do about it now?

[theend]

Indeed: "Kamma vipāka is harder to accept than Rebirth." (Ven. Nanavira)

[Feathers]

I think one reason for the resistance to the idea is that for some people the thought process happens like this:

- I've been hurt
- oh, this was due to my past kamma?
- so it's my 'fault' I've been hurt (---> unpleasant and unhelpful guilt)
- so it's not the 'fault' of the person who hurt me (---> issues with justice, instinctively we may be less critical of the perpetrator if the victim is 'to blame')

Given that it is this logic that sometimes results in people not reporting crimes, or staying in abusive relationships, or being cruel to the disabled (after all, they 'deserve' to suffer based on past kamma?), or using it to justify class/wealth difference . . .

I am not saying that the doctrine of kamma actually justifies any of those things, but people fear it being used that way, and to be fair some people do use it like that (a few years back some famous figure or other in the UK caused a stir by saying disabled people were to blame for their disabilities and deserved to suffer as it was their kamma causing it)

In short, if you're trying to break away from the horrible guilt complex frequently imposed by a western Christian upbringing, past kamma causing current suffering is not the happiest thing to run into

[martinfrank]

Hi all

One thing I've noticed pretty consistently when going around Internet forums about Buddhism is that there is almost a kind of anger when it is suggested that bad experiences people have such as growing up in an abusive environment or having a painful disease are related to past kamma. It always feels like there is a rush to point out that there are other explanations for bad things that happen to us. I never quite understand this, what's so hard about accepting that since we have had countless lifetimes of course we have done a huge amount of bad kamma as well as good kamma, and of course the bad kamma has to play out. it's not because we are bad people. The good results of past actions are playing out in a very clear way as well after all we are here in the human realm discussing Dhamma, that's a very rare blessing.

I think about this topic a lot because my partner had an abusive childhood and she sometimes asks if it was because of her kamma. In her case since she doesn't have an interest in or appreciation of the Dhamma I kind of dodge the question and say that what's important is what she's doing now. But if we are discussing among people who appreciate and understand the Buddha's teaching what is so difficult about accepting that we all have bad past kamma that must play out, and it is not a reflection on our current goodness or lack of it.

Phil

I agree with Phil. If we win we don't complain about the mysterious working of kamma, but if we lose, we start blaming others.

It is simply not good manners to tell a blind person that it is his/her own fault that he/she is blind, but of course - the world is fair - it is.

Buddhist morality - in my eyes - teaches that whatever you do has results for you. You can help or hurt others but how much they enjoy or suffer from your action depends on the other persons' kamma. If you hurt an arahat that will generate very bad kamma for you, but will he/she suffer?