Is contact a triad or a diad?

[chownah]

Usually I have thought of contact as being the meeting of the eye, the eye object, and eye consciousness. But in MN28 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ) it says:

"But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness."

In this passage, it seems that "corresponding engagement" might be taken to mean contact.....which would make contact a diad instead of a triad and it would make consciousness "appearing" when the contact is made.... Put another way, it seems like in MN28 it is saying that a "corresponding engagement" of eye and eye object is a condition which results in the appearing of consciousness (of the corresponding type).

chownah

[Spiny Norman]

Usually I have thought of contact as being the meeting of the eye, the eye object, and eye consciousness. But in MN28 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ) it says:

"But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness."

It looks to me very similar to the usual description of contact, eg as in the Loka Sutta: "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact." Though the phrase "corresponding engagement" in the MN28 passage is interesting.

What I'm less clear about are the practical differences between consciousness, contact and attention.

[SarathW]

Consider this in terms of 17 thought moments as describe in Abhidhamma as well.
The objective of this analysis is to understand the impersonal nature (Anatta) of our existence.
So it does not matter how you study this process.

[theend]

Usually I have thought of contact as being the meeting of the eye, the eye object, and eye consciousness. But in MN28 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ) it says:

"But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness."

In this passage, it seems that "corresponding engagement" might be taken to mean contact.....which would make contact a diad instead of a triad and it would make consciousness "appearing" when the contact is made.... Put another way, it seems like in MN28 it is saying that a "corresponding engagement" of eye and eye object is a condition which results in the appearing of consciousness (of the corresponding type).

Another way of looking at it:

Since MN 28 speaks of the eye as being "internal" (my eye, first person) and "intact" (not blind), seeing or a visual field is already implied at that "early" stage and in any of the mentioned scenarios. So the coming-into-range of external forms would mean that a form is now part of my visual field (e.g. when I turn around, certain forms "come into range" which were formerly "out of range"). Only with such "available" forms is a "corresponding engagement" possible. So it is quite clear that in such a case "corresponding type of consciousness" would not refer to mere seeing, but to a "consciousness" that is related to the arising of the five clinging-aggregates as MN 28 mentions.

[chownah]

Having looked around it seems that contact as triad is found everywhere and I guess the wording of MN18 just seemed a bit different. It would be good to verify that "corresponding engagement" is not a translation of the Pali word for contact.
chownah

[acinteyyo]

Having looked around it seems that contact as triad is found everywhere and I guess the wording of MN18 just seemed a bit different. It would be good to verify that "corresponding engagement" is not a translation of the Pali word for contact.
chownah

It isn't. The word used in MN28 is "samannāhāro". I cannot translate it adequately, my pali isn't good enough.
The pali word for "contact" is "phassa".

"Now if internally the eye is intact but externally forms do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness."

ajjhattikañceva, āvuso, cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā na āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, no ca tajjo samannāhāro hoti, neva tāva tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti. ajjhattikañcevaāvuso, cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, no ca tajjo samannāhāro hoti, neva tāva tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti. yato ca kho, āvuso, ajjhattikañceva cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, tajjo ca samannāhāro hoti. evaṃ tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.

[Sylvester]

Engagement/samannāhāra is attention/manasikāra. From a previous post -

Here you go, using the MN 28 passage on visual-consciousness -

Ajjhattikañceva, āvuso, cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā na āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, no ca tajjo samannāhāro hoti, neva tāva tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti. Ajjhattikañceva, āvuso, cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, no ca tajjo samannāhāro hoti, neva tāva tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti. Yato ca kho, āvuso, ajjhattikañceva cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, tajjo ca samannāhāro hoti. Evaṃ tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.

If, friends, internally the eye is intact but no external forms come into its range, and there is no corresponding conscious engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding conscious engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding conscious engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.

tran. BB

What I call attention, the Pali says tajja samannāhāra. The Comy interprets this phrase to mean attention -

Tajjo samannāhāro'ti taṃ cakkhuñca rūpe ca paṭicca bhavaṅgaṃ āvaṭṭetvā uppajjanamanasikāro

This Comy interpretation is supported by the Chinese parallel preserved in MA 30 (http://www.cbeta.org/cgi-bin/goto.pl?li ... 6_p0464b17) which says this, corresponding to the 3rd proposition of the above Pali passage -

若內眼處不 壞者。
外色便為光明所照。
而便有念。
眼識 得生

If internally the eye base is not spoiled
externally form may manifest vision (illumination?)
and there is attention (念),
eye-consciousness arises.

my transl, as to which 念, see Ven Analayo's Comparative Study of the MN

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p289297

Our friend unrul3r also kindly drew my attention to the absolutive verb form samannāharitvā. It almost invariably appears side-by-side with the absolutive manasikatvā as part of the following pericope -

...aṭṭhiṃ katvā manasikatvā sabbacetasā samannāharitvā ...

he heeds it, gives it attention, engages it with all his mind,

eg MN 46, trans BB

Looking at the 3 verbs, they are arranged deliberately according to the waxing syllables principle, a dead give-away that this is a mnemonic device to preserve the meaning from being lost, in case any word was forgotten during transmission. The actions being described are therefore synonyms, supporting the Comy and Agama reading that samannāhāra = attention.

[chownah]

acinteyyo,
Thank you soooo much. Problem solved, triad it is.
chownah

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Problem solved, triad it is.

I concur, although parts of the commentarial tradition may beg to differ...

"Bhante Nāgasena, what is contact?"
"Your majesty, contact is the act of coming in contact."
"Give an illustration."
"It is as if, your majesty, two rams were to fight one another. The eye is comparable to one of these rams, form to the other, and contact to their collision with each other."
"Give another illustration."
"It is as if, your majesty, the two hands were to be clapped together. The eye is comparable to one hand, form to the other, and contact to their collision with each other."
"Give another illustration."
"It is as if, your majesty, two cymbals were to be clapped together. The eye is comparable to one cymbal, form to the other, and contact to their collision with each other."
"You are an able man, bhante Nāgasena."

(Questions Of King Milingda, translation from Warren's Buddhism in Translations, pp. 186-87)

Metta,
Retro.

[Mkoll]

Sylvester,

What is the waxing syllables principle?

[Spiny Norman]

The actions being described are therefore synonyms, supporting the Comy and Agama reading that samannāhāra = attention.

So does attention precede contact, or is it the other way round?

[Sylvester]

Hi James

It is a mnemonic device, as well as a textual integrity insurance device that is very common in the suttas.

Mnemonic in that it can help the reciter remember textual clusters when words in the clusters are arranged in "waxing syllables", ie the words in the cluster have increasing syllabic count. The crescendo effect is quite pronounced.

The more important function is that the reciters pad an old/original textual cluster/pericope with as many synonyms as possible to insure against the loss of meaning, in case some of the words are forgotten. All of the padding are synonyms, so that even if a few words are lost, the meaning is somehow preserved by the padding. However, there is a method to this madness - the padding needs to be inserted so that the sequence of words are arranged in increasing syllabic count.

An example -

“Satimā” ti. Tattha, katamā sati?
“Mindful”. Herein, what is mindfulness?

Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā,
That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance,

dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā,
bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing,

sati 17 Satindriyaṁ Satibalaṁ Sammāsati – ayaṁ vuccati “sati”.
mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness – this is called “mindfulness”.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 55#p205855

This can then be analysed into its sub-units as follows -

1. "sati anussati paṭissati" being one set of a waxing syllable sequence of 2, 4, 4;
2. "sati saraṇatā" being a new sequence shown by the intrusion of the bi-syllabic sati after paṭissati (2, 4); and
3. "dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā" being the final set of 4, 6, 6.

This is actually quite a sophisticated example, since it shows 2 types of waxing syllable sets within one textual cluster. The 1st type are the sets revealed by the synonyms within each of the 3 sub-clusters, and the 2nd less obvious type are the 3 sub-clusters themselves.

Something from KR Norman - http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=qYy ... li&f=false

Something from Ven Analayo - https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&rct= ... co1Goj4REw

The Chinese translators of the Agamas were apparently aware of this phenomenon, and I've read somewhere the bitter complaint of one such translation team that bemoaned the overabundance of Indian synonyms used in textual clusters, for which there were not enough Chinese synonyms to match.

[Sylvester]

The actions being described are therefore synonyms, supporting the Comy and Agama reading that samannāhāra = attention.

So does attention precede contact, or is it the other way round?

Too Byzantine for me.

[Spiny Norman]

The actions being described are therefore synonyms, supporting the Comy and Agama reading that samannāhāra = attention.

So does attention precede contact, or is it the other way round?

Too Byzantine for me.

[daverupa]

Byzantine used akin to 'labyrinthine', but with connotations of overly complex or intricate. A Byzantine legal code, for example.

I'll probably start using this term more often, it's been a while.