The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,
Manapa wrote:does the Abhidhamma (or anyother supposidly Buddhavacana) fit with the teachings leading to liberation or do they deviate from the path?
I think that is at the crux of this issue. Yet, who do we trust to answer such a question? A Sammasambuddha? An arahant? A non-returner? A once-returner? A stream-entrant? A Thera? Ourselves? How can we validate the "enlightenment credentials" of people who claim to be such?

"Fit with" is also an interesting term. Does it mean, on one hand, "the most profound explanation, as explained by a Buddha", or on the other hand, "not inconsistent with the teachings of the Buddha". Again, people may have different expectations. Who do we trust to determine fit?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Cittasanto »

Just realised and think I should clarify, I am on about arahants who we think are Arahants as in Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Boowa etc as speaking words of a Buddha, not for instance anything I say or anyone as speaking Buddhas words, although I have read some of my words :coffee: and no they are not :tongue:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,

With the greatest respect to Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Boowa... I would never be comfortable in calling anything they say Buddhavacana. Even those who are purported to be arahants do not speak in unison on certain issues. Consider for instance Ajahn Chah's dismissiveness of much of the Abhidhammic and commentarial material. Contrast this with some of the Burmese masters, for example.

Who to believe as definitive Buddhavacana? Why open that Pandora's Box?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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retrofuturist wrote: For me though, this application of Buddhavacana is a slippery slope. I'm all for the Buddha declaring he would have spoken in such a way, but once people who aren't Sammasambuddhas start declaring that the now-deceased Buddha would have spoken in such a way... then I think things start to go awry. Subtleties and profundity get missed, and the process repeats ad infinitum until what remains is not Buddhavacana by anyone's definition.
Since the Theragatha and Therigatha are included as Buddhavacana, but obviously not the words of Buddha, another more middle way position of Buddhavacana could be the words of Buddha, plus those enlightened elders (monks and nuns) during the time of Buddha, up to the First Council.

That would eliminate the possibilities of the slippery slope you refer to above, and certainly not including anything anyone said today as Buddhavacana. :tongue:

That would include at least the first 4 Nikayas, some or most of the Khuddaka Nikaya, the Patimokkha and the rest depending upon your view of the historical information from scholars and the later councils.

Or if we accept Buddhavacana to include all those elders up to the Third or even Fourth Council, then we have the current Tipitaka as Buddhavacana.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,
Manapa wrote:does the Abhidhamma (or anyother supposidly Buddhavacana) fit with the teachings leading to liberation or do they deviate from the path?
I think that is at the crux of this issue. Yet, who do we trust to answer such a question? A Sammasambuddha? An arahant? A non-returner? A once-returner? A stream-entrant? A Thera? Ourselves? How can we validate the "enlightenment credentials" of people who claim to be such?

"Fit with" is also an interesting term. Does it mean, on one hand, "the most profound explanation, as explained by a Buddha", or on the other hand, "not inconsistent with the teachings of the Buddha". Again, people may have different expectations.

Metta,
Retro. :)
not read this when I had posted my last responce, but in answer to your responce to that responce (now my head goes hurty :thinking: ) is ehipasiko
but I also think that is the answer to this reply also, or at least in part, who can we trust? we are to make ourselfves like an island, but islands are not disconected from everything else, under the sea we can see that islands are connected, we need friends who can help us, but should we rely on them to provide all the answers? or should we rely on our own understanding to help us? or should we use both?

personally I think we should use what we need to, if we find ourselves going off course then see where the problem is and amend that problem.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,
TheDhamma wrote:Since the Theragatha and Therigatha are included as Buddhavacana
Out of interest, do you know who defined them as such, and when?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings David,
TheDhamma wrote:Since the Theragatha and Therigatha are included as Buddhavacana
Out of interest, do you know who defined them as such, and when?
I don't know. Where's Bhante Dhammanando when you need him? :tongue:

My guess would be because they are all written by arahants and well-up on the 'Chronology of Pali Canon' list by Thomas William Rhys Davids in his Buddhist India.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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TheDhamma wrote:That would eliminate the possibilities of the slippery slope you refer to above, and certainly not including anything anyone said today as Buddhavacana. :tongue:

Or if we accept Buddhavacana to include all those elders up to the Third or even Fourth Council, then we have the current Tipitaka as Buddhavacana.
1 - is tomorrow open for some Buddhavacana??? :thinking:

2 - then why not the 5th & 6th? then the more recent burmese additions would be included.

I think a safe bet would be any Arahant speaks the words of a Buddha, but this does leave open the conundrum in Retros/mine slightly side discussion.

personally I feel that it falls on faith, I have met one monk who did not inspire me in the slightest and would have a hard time saying he was at any level of the path other than being clothed in robes, and another monk whos teaching and manner had me instantly thinking should he be saying doing this but after each thought feeling inspired to practice harder and have no problem with believing he is a Arahant and saying so.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected attribute of quote
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DNS »

Manapa wrote: 2 - then why not the 5th & 6th? then the more recent burmese additions would be included.
If you accept the account from the Commentaries, the era we are in now is 'not open' to arahants and non-returner is the highest state one can reach.

That would mean the 5th & 6th councils had no arahants in attendance (years 1871 & 1954).
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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TheDhamma wrote:
Manapa wrote: 2 - then why not the 5th & 6th? then the more recent burmese additions would be included.
If you accept the account from the Commentaries, the era we are in now is 'not open' to arahants and non-returner is the highest state one can reach.

That would mean the 5th & 6th councils had no arahants in attendance (years 1871 & 1954).
That is true, so I take it tomorow is closed also :group: LOL

I have occasionally wondered why such a 'timeframe' developed it doesn't seam to make sense to me, but I hav't read the relevant info on it
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa, all,
Manapa wrote:I think a safe bet would be any Arahant speaks the words of a Buddha, but this does leave open the conundrum in Retros/mine slightly side discussion.
As a counter to that proposition, I would put forward an example from the Dhanañjani Sutta where... (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el090.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
The Venerable Sariputta explains to the brahman Dhanañjani that the multifarious duties of a layman are no excuse for wrong moral conduct, nor do they exempt one from painful consequences of such conduct in a future existence. Later, when Dhanañjani was on his deathbed he requested the Elder to visit him, and the Venerable Sariputta spoke to him, on the way to Brahma through the Brahma-viharas. The Buddha mildly reproached the elder for not having led Dhanañjani to a higher understanding.
Link to sutta extract: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 0.html#p59" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other words, what venerable Sariputta said to Dhanañjani was not incorrect... it certainly "fit" with the Dhamma and was in accord with his enlightened experiences as an arahant, but it is certainly not what the Buddha would have spoken or done, in his capacity of being a Sammasambuddha, thus... under such circumstances, are comments like Sariputta's to be understood as Buddhavacana?

My preference here is obviously... no.

If the Buddha had "rubber stamped" it with his "explained it as I would have done" style approval, I would permit it as Buddhavacana.

Even the great General of the Dhamma, the mighty venerable Sariputta, did not always speak Buddhavacana, let alone the arahants and commentators that were to speak and write of the Dhamma in later years. I hope this and above comments provide some clarity as to the stringent criteria I hold the texts to, and why the Abhidhamma Pitaka, given all available evidence, does not pass this test. It's not through lack of respect of those who came later, but rather, it's indicative of the respect I hold for the Buddha and the way, in both content and means, by which he expounded the Dhamma.

The Buddha did not need his teachings to be refined or systemized by arahants for him. I believe he already taught them as perfectly as anyone could do.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Cittasanto »

EDIT Ignore this post already answered
retrofuturist wrote:Link to sutta extract: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 0.html#p59" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other words, what venerable Sariputta said to Dhanañjani was not incorrect... it certainly "fit" with the Dhamma and was in accord with his enlightened experiences as an arahant, but it is certainly not what the Buddha would have spoken or done, in his capacity of being a Sammasambuddha, thus... under such circumstances, are comments like Sariputta's to be understood as Buddhavacana?

My preference here is obviously... no.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Are all of Sariputta's words to be left out of being classed as Buddhavacana? or Ananda's?
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Manapa wrote:Are all of Sariputta's words to be left out of being classed as Buddhavacana? or Ananda's?
I updated the above post a little while you were asking this question, so perhaps it has already been partly answered.

I will say:

1. I may apply a more stringent definition of Buddhavacana to others, so keep that in mind.
2. Directly in response to your question... (for me) they only constitute Buddhavacana if the Buddha "rubber-stamped" them as detailed above.

Again, that's my approach and my preference. Of course, others are free to tackle such issues by alternative methods and via their own discretion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Cittasanto »

cant delete it for some reason?? pointless post after your edit!

I think we agree on this, although I am less strict than you (on this matter atleast)

as I have said before I think we agree on more than disagree on.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Manapa wrote:Are all of Sariputta's words to be left out of being classed as Buddhavacana? or Ananda's?
I updated the above post a little while you were asking this question, so perhaps it has already been partly answered.

I will say:

1. I may apply a more stringent definition of Buddhavacana to others, so keep that in mind.
2. Directly in response to your question... (for me) they only constitute Buddhavacana if the Buddha "rubber-stamped" them as detailed above.

Again, that's my approach and my preference. Of course, others are free to tackle such issues by alternative methods and via their own discretion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DNS »

Short intermission break for some humor:

From RobertK's abhidhamma study group:

Robert,
A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to stay awake :-) But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can help break down the notion of a "self", but besides this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure time of a deva at the moment.
FK
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