Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
philosopher
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Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by philosopher »

I've been lucid dreaming for many years, and although I don't actively try to induce them anymore, I still have them spontaneously. They are incredibly exhilarating (as those who've had them know very well). The experience of being in a world that seems as vivid as waking life and realizing is a dream is a very profound experience. I'm interested in finding out if there is some kind of spiritual use for them. Last night I had one and remembered this intention but did not know what to do. I had the thought while in the dream that I wanted to use the experience as a spiritual exploration, so I started speaking to characters in the dream and telling them that what we were experiencing was a dream. Beyond that I wasn't sure what to do so then I just engaged in my favorite lucid dream activity - flying. Interestingly, mindfulness helps when lucid. I find now that when I'm lucid in a dream it's easier to maintain mindfulness that I am dreaming so that I don't slip as quickly back into a non-lucid state.

All of the above likely won't mean much to those who haven't done some serious lucid dream work, but I'm hoping that I'll receive some guidance from those who have.

Metta!

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VinceField
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by VinceField »

I've been having lucid dreams and out of body experiences for half of my life now. There is limitless potential for the aquisition of spiritual knowledge in these states. Just try to meditate while in a lucid dream and see how incredibly deep you go into layers of your self that you didn't even know existed. I am currently writing a book on the experiences and spiritual revelations I have gained while in these states, so I can attest to the fact that there is indeed genuine spiritual growth potential in these states if one directs their intentions in the right way.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by Goofaholix »

If you've ever done intensive meditation retreats you'll know the mind is constantly at work in creating alternative realities, anything but the bare bones of the present moment. It's hardly a surprise that this continues in one's sleep, I know when I'm on retreat my dreams get relatively more lucid though not to the degree you've described.

The practice is to not buy into the mental proliferation, not engage with it or try and alter it in any way, just observe it without attachment and let it run out of steam.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
philosopher
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by philosopher »

VinceField wrote: Just try to meditate while in a lucid dream and see how incredibly deep you go into layers of your self that you didn't even know existed.
Wow, this is a great suggestion. I suspect that I would quickly fall back into non-lucidity if I tried this, but it sounds interesting and worth a shot. As it is as soon as I become lucid I repeat out loud to myself, "This is a dream, this is a dream" in order to maintain lucidity. For now just extending the length of the lucid dream is a challenge. I usually slip back into non-lucidity fairly quickly.

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philosopher
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by philosopher »

Goofaholix wrote:If you've ever done intensive meditation retreats you'll know the mind is constantly at work in creating alternative realities, anything but the bare bones of the present moment. It's hardly a surprise that this continues in one's sleep, I know when I'm on retreat my dreams get relatively more lucid though not to the degree you've described.

The practice is to not buy into the mental proliferation, not engage with it or try and alter it in any way, just observe it without attachment and let it run out of steam.
I'm not referring to vivid dreams, which I have when not lucid. I'm referring to dreams in which one is aware one is dreaming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream

As I said, I suspect very few on this board have firsthand experience of this. Thank you for the input, though.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by Goofaholix »

philosopher wrote:As I said, I suspect very few on this board have firsthand experience of this. Thank you for the input, though.
It doesn't really matter if it's lucid or vivid it's still a mind made experience, mind made experiences though very entertaining can't be trusted in my experience so it's best to be on the lookout for signs of the craving, aversion, and delusion that are feeding the experience.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Aloka
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by Aloka »

As I said, I suspect very few on this board have firsthand experience of this.
There have already been threads on this topic in the past. Here are two of them:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11374

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15443

Also of possible interest on the sister Mahayana/Vajrayana forum:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15266


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LXNDR
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by LXNDR »

Goofaholix wrote:mind made experiences though very entertaining can't be trusted
going back to scalding, do you consider sensation of pain a mind made experience?
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Aloka
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by Aloka »

LXNDR wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:mind made experiences though very entertaining can't be trusted
going back to scalding............
Scalding ?


.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by Goofaholix »

LXNDR wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:mind made experiences though very entertaining can't be trusted
going back to scalding, do you consider sensation of pain a mind made experience?
The sensation of pain is a body made experience, it's carried via the nervous system. The feeling tone, mental proliferation, and dukkha arise within the mind.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Goofaholix
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by Goofaholix »

Aloka wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:mind made experiences though very entertaining can't be trusted
going back to scalding............
Scalding ?

.
The scaldings will continue until morale improves!
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
LXNDR
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by LXNDR »

Goofaholix wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:mind made experiences though very entertaining can't be trusted
going back to scalding, do you consider sensation of pain a mind made experience?
The sensation of pain is a body made experience, it's carried via the nervous system. The feeling tone, mental proliferation, and dukkha arise within the mind.
if the end station of dukkha experience is the mind, is it safe to conclude that it is a mind made one? for had there been no mind, there would be no dukkha experience
culaavuso
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by culaavuso »

philosopher wrote:Beyond that I wasn't sure what to do so then I just engaged in my favorite lucid dream activity - flying. Interestingly, mindfulness helps when lucid. I find now that when I'm lucid in a dream it's easier to maintain mindfulness that I am dreaming so that I don't slip as quickly back into a non-lucid state.
The same practice of the four foundations of mindfulness can be equally useful when awake or dreaming. Mindfulness of the body seems to run the greatest risk of leading to waking up from the dream, however. Mindfulness of feelings and the mind can be interesting in that they tend to have a stronger correlation with what arises at the senses than when waking. Mindfulness of the mind and mental states are helpful in trying to extend the lucidity. Simply trying to be aware of the activities of the six sense doors and observing cause and effect there can be interesting as well.

Activities like flying and talking with dream characters seem to be similar to indulging in sensual pleasures or thinking during waking hours. The intentions and practices that are suitable to lucid dreams don't seem to be so different from the intentions and practices that are suitable in waking life, other than having to be heedful of the balance of maintaining lucidity without entirely waking up. The five aggregates can be observed in dreams just like when awake and can be worked with using similar techniques. Actions condition future states of mind across the waking/sleeping boundary.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by Goofaholix »

LXNDR wrote:if the end station of dukkha experience is the mind, is it safe to conclude that it is a mind made one? for had there been no mind, there would be no dukkha experience
Yes dukkha is mind made, and you can't have dukkha without a mind to experience it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
LXNDR
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Re: Lucid dreaming for spiritual insight?

Post by LXNDR »

Goofaholix wrote:
LXNDR wrote:if the end station of dukkha experience is the mind, is it safe to conclude that it is a mind made one? for had there been no mind, there would be no dukkha experience
Yes dukkha is mind made, and you can't have dukkha without a mind to experience it.
in that case the experience of pain cannot not be trusted either
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