Lately I have been contemplating the Buddhist concept of no-self, as I have had some confusion about certain aspects of the idea.
On the one hand it is not difficult to understand or even experience the concept that not only one's external environment is not one's self, but also that one's body and the internal activities of the mind are also intrinsically not one's self due to their impermanent nature, although this seems to imply that the nature of the self must be permanent, which I do not believe is inherent in the concept, especially as there are multiple variations of the definition of self (these are described in Buddha's teachings found in the link at the bottom). However, I have trouble contemplating there being no self at all.
I believe there is a fundamental, core level of consciousness that is the true self, as my experiences in deeper levels of spiritual realities have seemed to reveal. I believe the true self is the deepest level of pure awareness, pure consciousness, pure experience of beingness, separate from any manifestations or fabrications that result in various illusory experiences of physical and nonphysical realities. The true self lies beneath the ever-changing experience, it is that source level of consciousness that perceives dukkha, anicca, and anatta, that core essence that is the constant observer.
After doing some research, it would appear that the idea of NO-self is a misinterpretation of the Buddha's teachings, with the more accurate interpretation being NOT-self. Here are some relevant pieces of information I have come across to clarify this issue and which I believe show that there is no contradiction between my belief in a fundamental self and the Buddhist concept of not-self, aside from the fact that Buddha taught not to have any beliefs regarding the nature of the self, and that it cannot be concluded that there is no fundamental level of consciousness that is the true seat of the self based on the Buddha's original teachings:
"This teaching (of No-Self) is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth?"
"Instead of answering "no" to the question of whether or not there is a self — interconnected or separate, eternal or not — the Buddha felt that the question was misguided to begin with. Why? No matter how you define the line between "self" and "other," the notion of self involves an element of self-identification and clinging, and thus suffering and stress...For these reasons, the Buddha advised paying no attention to such questions as "Do I exist?" or "Don't I exist?" for however you answer them, they lead to suffering and stress."
"The Buddha, in teaching not-self, was not answering the question of whether there is or isn't a self. This question was one he explicitly put aside.... The issue is not, "What is my true self?" but "What kind of perception of self is skillful and when is it skillful, what kind of perception of not-self is skillful and when is it skillful?"
"In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?"
"On one interpretation, although Buddhism rejects the notion of a permanent self, it does not reject the notion of an empirical self (albeit consisting of constantly changing physical and mental phenomena) that can be conveniently referred to with words such as "I", "you", "being", "individual", etc. According to Buddhist teachings, this phenomenon should not, either in whole or in part, be reified, either in affirmation or denial."
"One misinterpretation is that the Buddha's not-self teaching is aimed specifically at negating the view of self proposed in the Brahmanical Upanishads — that the self is permanent, cosmic, and identical with God"
"The second misinterpretation is the exact opposite: The Buddha is negating the idea that you have a small, separate self, but he's affirming the existence of a large, interconnected, cosmic self."
"The third misinterpretation is similar to the first, but it introduces the idea that a self, to be a true self, has to be permanent. According to this interpretation, the Buddha is affirming that the five aggregates are what you are, but these five aggregates don't really qualify to be called a self because they aren't permanent."
"None of these interpretations fit in with the Buddha's actual teachings, or his actual approach to the question of whether there is or is not a self. They misrepresent the Buddha both for formal reasons — the fact that they give an analytical answer to a question the Buddha put aside — and for reasons of content: They don't fit in with what the Buddha actually had to say on the topic of self and not-self."
"Another problem with this misinterpretation is that it opens the Buddha to charges of lying in the many passages where he does refer to the self in a positive way — as when he says that the self is its own mainstay. If there really is no self at all, why does he talk about it as if it exists? To get around this problem, the interpretation introduces the distinction between two levels of truth: conventional and ultimate. Thus, it says, when the Buddha is talking about self, he's doing so only in a conventional way. On the ultimate level, no self exists. The problem with this distinction is that the Buddha himself never uses it — it was introduced into the tradition at a much later date — and if it were so central to understanding his teachings, you'd think that he would have mentioned it. But he didn't."
My understanding is that the Buddha taught that contemplation and conceptualization of the idea of the self leads to suffering, but I don't see how this implies that there is no true self, especially as there are many aspects of the nature of the self and reality which are simply imperceptible to human awareness.
If anyone has a grasp on this concept I would be interested in hearing your opinions!
More can be found here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... self2.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#talk6
What is No-Self?
Re: What is No-Self?
Hi Vince
yes I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains all of this very well. Both the view "I have a self" and the view "I have no self" are denoted as wrong views by the Buddha here:
manas
yes I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains all of this very well. Both the view "I have a self" and the view "I have no self" are denoted as wrong views by the Buddha here:
kind regards"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
[bolding added for emphasis]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
manas
Last edited by manas on Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What is No-Self?
If there is "the deepest level of pure awareness" which is "separate from fabrications" then why fabricate (construe) a "true self" out of that "pure awarness"? Isn't the idea of "true self" just an idea superimposed upon the "pure awareness" by the fabricating mind? Why not just let the "pure awareness" (or whatever it is) remain "pure" without any ideas?VinceField wrote: I believe there is a fundamental, core level of consciousness that is the true self, as my experiences in deeper levels of spiritual realities have seemed to reveal. I believe the true self is the deepest level of pure awareness, pure consciousness, pure experience of beingness, separate from any manifestations or fabrications that result in various illusory experiences of physical and nonphysical realities. The true self lies beneath the ever-changing experience, it is that source level of consciousness that perceives dukkha, anicca, and anatta, that core essence that is the constant observer.
Last edited by SamKR on Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: What is No-Self?
Sam, I think that was very well said, I would just change the first word of your post from "when" to "if", because I suspect that neither you nor I nor anyone else here, can either confirm or deny such an underlying awareness.SamKR wrote: When there is "the deepest level of pure awareness" which is "separate from fabrications" then why fabricate (construe) a "true self" out of that "pure awarness"? Isn't the idea of "true self" just an idea superimposed upon the "pure awareness" by the fabricating mind? Why not just let the "pure awareness" (or whatever it is) remain "pure" without any ideas.
manas
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What is No-Self?
Thanks, manas. I changed "when" to "If" which better conveys what I wanted to say.
Last edited by SamKR on Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What is No-Self?
\SamKR wrote:Thanks, manas. I changed it to "If" which better conveys what I wanted to say.
No worries, sorry if I sounded like I was nitpicking!
manas
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Re: What is No-Self?
‘I have a self’ … I do not have a self’ (atthi me attā’ti … natthi me attā’ti) are the view of the puthujjana of an attā for me. This is not to be confused with the fact that the Tathāgata most definitely denied the ātman.manas wrote: ... yes I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains all of this very well. Both the view "I have a self" and the view "I have no self" are denoted as wrong views by the Buddha here...
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Re: What is No-Self?
Ṭhānissaro has a rather unique position in this matter. It is also wrong.Ṭhānissaro wrote: “This teaching (of No-Self) is a stumbling block for two reasons. …”
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
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Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
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Re: What is No-Self?
SamKR's post above probably addresses the issue more directly: this 'self' is, as described in the quote from Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu above, just a perception (sañña) or view (diṭṭhi) which arises depending on conditions. It might also be helpful to read a few discussions of consciousness from the suttas:VinceField wrote: I believe there is a fundamental, core level of consciousness that is the true self, as my experiences in deeper levels of spiritual realities have seemed to reveal. I believe the true self is the deepest level of pure awareness, pure consciousness, pure experience of beingness, separate from any manifestations or fabrications that result in various illusory experiences of physical and nonphysical realities. The true self lies beneath the ever-changing experience, it is that source level of consciousness that perceives dukkha, anicca, and anatta, that core essence that is the constant observer.
SN 22.59: Pañcavaggiya Sutta wrote: Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'
...
Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."
...
Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'
SN 22.95: Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta wrote: Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?
It might also be helpful to consider the nature of views and the way they arise from inappropriate attention, which was defined in manas' quote from MN2 above.SN 25.3: Viññāṇa Sutta wrote: Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
AN 10.93: Kiṃdiṭṭhika Sutta wrote: ... his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress.
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Re: What is No-Self?
With reference to a “..core level of consciousness that is the true self…” this fits the heresy of bhikkhu Sāti.
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Re: What is No-Self?
As I understand it, he said that clinging to the idea of an atman was a hindrance for liberation from stress, including the clinging of the Upanishadic sages regarding this. But that's still not the same thing as the militant nihilism that the Buddha seems to be (falsely) associated with nowadays.ancientbuddhism wrote:This is not to be confused with the fact that the Tathāgata most definitely denied the ātman.
manas
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Re: What is No-Self?
That pretty much answers it.SamKR wrote:If there is "the deepest level of pure awareness" which is "separate from fabrications" then why fabricate (construe) a "true self" out of that "pure awarness"? Isn't the idea of "true self" just an idea superimposed upon the "pure awareness" by the fabricating mind? Why not just let the "pure awareness" (or whatever it is) remain "pure" without any ideas?VinceField wrote: I believe there is a fundamental, core level of consciousness that is the true self, as my experiences in deeper levels of spiritual realities have seemed to reveal. I believe the true self is the deepest level of pure awareness, pure consciousness, pure experience of beingness, separate from any manifestations or fabrications that result in various illusory experiences of physical and nonphysical realities. The true self lies beneath the ever-changing experience, it is that source level of consciousness that perceives dukkha, anicca, and anatta, that core essence that is the constant observer.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: What is No-Self?
Can you cite anything to back this up? Something other than the convolutions of Ṭhānissaro of course.manas wrote:As I understand it, he said that clinging to the idea of an atman was a hindrance for liberation from stress, including the clinging of the Upanishadic sages regarding this. But that's still not the same thing as the militant nihilism that the Buddha seems to be (falsely) associated with nowadays.ancientbuddhism wrote:This is not to be confused with the fact that the Tathāgata most definitely denied the ātman.
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: What is No-Self?
That's a rather bold and I believe foolish statement to make about a senior monk, translator of pali, scholar and accomplished meditator in our tradition. Are you able to back it up at all, with hard evidence from the suttas?ancientbuddhism wrote:Ṭhānissaro has a rather unique position in this matter. It is also wrong.Ṭhānissaro wrote: “This teaching (of No-Self) is a stumbling block for two reasons. …”
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What is No-Self?
It's not Thanissaro Bhikkhu's fault if you find his clear and straightforward explanation convoluted, it's your own prejudice that is preventing you from understanding it, I'd say.ancientbuddhism wrote:Can you cite anything to back this up? Something other than the convolutions of Ṭhānissaro of course.manas wrote:As I understand it, he said that clinging to the idea of an atman was a hindrance for liberation from stress, including the clinging of the Upanishadic sages regarding this. But that's still not the same thing as the militant nihilism that the Buddha seems to be (falsely) associated with nowadays.ancientbuddhism wrote:This is not to be confused with the fact that the Tathāgata most definitely denied the ātman.
kind regards
manas
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.