Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:26 am

Rahula wrote:this talk by Dr.Peacock is about 'Metta as a path to awakening'


The practice of metta when perfected and combined with insight into inconstancy is a path to awakening, as described in MN52 which was mentioned above:
MN52: Atthakanagara Sutta wrote:Then again, a monk keeps pervading the first direction[2] with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This awareness-release through good will is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.


"The ending of the mental fermentations" means full awakening. "The total wasting away of the first five Fetters" means the state of non-return, which implies only one remaining rebirth in the Pure Abodes which will then yield full awakening. These descriptions can be seen in MN118
MN118: Anapanasati Sutta wrote:"In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Aloka » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:15 am

Digity wrote:My understanding is that metta alone is not sufficient for awakening.


This paper by Professor Richard Gombrich (historian & Pali scholar) might be of interest:

"Kindness and Compassion as means to Nirvana in Early Buddhism"

http://www.ocbs.org/images/documents/gonda.pdf


:anjali:
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Thule » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:42 pm

Aloka wrote:
Digity wrote:My understanding is that metta alone is not sufficient for awakening.


This paper by Professor Richard Gombrich (historian & Pali scholar) might be of interest:

"Kindness and Compassion as means to Nirvana in Early Buddhism"

http://www.ocbs.org/images/documents/gonda.pdf


:anjali:


Two related articles by Giuliana Martini:

The Meditative Dynamics of the Early Buddhist Appamāṇas,
Giuliana Martini, Canadian Journal of Buddhist Studies, Number 7, 2011
http://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.ph ... 7071/14047
"Abstract:

With this article I review distinctive aspects of the early Buddhist practice of the appamāṇas, the boundless states of benevolence (mettā), compassion (karuṇā), sympathetic joy (muditā) and equanimity (upekkhā). My concern is specifically the function and potential of the appamāṇas in relation to the unfolding of the spiritual path of the individual. Quite apart from their beneficial relational and social effects, how are they meant to support the path to liberation? Since I focus on the early phases of Buddhist thought, and its position vis-à-vis the contemporary ancient Indian context, I employ the early Buddhist textual material as my main source, generally leaving aside commentaries and later developments. A close reading of the texts indicates that the specifics of appamāṇa meditation in the context of the early Buddhist soteriological scheme are the prescription to develop it in dependence on the factors of awakening (sambojjhangas) and the use of this practice as a platform for insight (vipassanā) and thereby for the realisation of awakening."

and:
Transcending the Limiting Power of Karma — The Early Buddhist Appamāṇas
http://www.undv.org/vesak2012/iabudoc/3 ... iFINAL.pdf
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Rahula » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:39 am

pegembara wrote:
This is what should be done
By one who is skilled in goodness
And who knows the path of peace:
Let them be able and upright,
Straightforward and gentle in speech,
Humble and not conceited,
Contented and easily satisfied,
Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways.
Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful,
Not proud and demanding in nature.
Let them not do the slightest thing
That the wise would later reprove,

Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease.

Radiating kindness over the entire world:
Spreading upwards to the skies
And downwards to the depths,
Outwards and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.
Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down,
Free from drowsiness,
One should sustain this recollection.
This is said to be the sublime abiding.
By not holding to fixed vews,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision,
Being freed from all sense-desires,
Is not born again into this world
.


Essentially, the sutra describes the qualities that a Buddhist needs to cultivate to achieve the ultimate end of goodwill, the state of a ‘non-returner’, that is, someone who is at the penultimate stage of enlightenment. This is the meaning of the final line Being freed from all sense-desires, is not born again into this world. A ‘non-returner’ will never be born into this world again, but will take up residence in a heavenly state where they can become fully enlightened. This is because they are not holding to fixed views and are freed from all sense-desires through the practice of loving-kindness that loosens the bonds of attachment to the things of this world.

And that is no small achievement.


Following is the last line of 'Karaniya Metta Sutta'
"... Nahi jatu gabbaha seyyam punaretiti ..."

It's been translated as following;
"Truly, he does not come again; to be conceived in a womb"
(http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/Kar ... 0Sutta.pdf)

"one never again will lie in the womb."
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)

My understanding is that translating it as "Is not born again into this world." is completely wrong.

The word "gabbaha" means womb.
In Sinhal language (my mother tongue) also "garbaha", which is similar, means womb.

Birth by a womb is just one form of birth. There are 4 forms of birth in Buddhist text.

So how can anyone translate "... Nahi jatu gabbaha seyyam punaretiti ..." as "Is not born again into this world." ?
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:45 am

Rahula wrote:

So how can anyone translate "... Nahi jatu gabbaha seyyam punaretiti ..." as "Is not born again into this world." ?
Naughty John Peacock. Never, ever listen to his talks again, never, ever!!!!!
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Aloka » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:45 am

tiltbillings wrote: Naughty John Peacock. Never, ever listen to his talks again, never, ever!!!!!


:rofl:

.
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Rahula » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Rahula wrote:

So how can anyone translate "... Nahi jatu gabbaha seyyam punaretiti ..." as "Is not born again into this world." ?
Naughty John Peacock. Never, ever listen to his talks again, never, ever!!!!!


:anjali:

My whole point is, if he got this wrong (I have not come to that conclusion yet), what else he might had taken wrong.
I will not be confidant in his teaching as I'll have doubt.

Do you think he was correct on his 'Metta as a path to awakening' talks? If so can you please explain in details. This is very important to me. I had much faith in Dr.Peacock's teachings. I like to keep that faith. You seems to be agree with his teachings, as I notices in your previous post. Please help me understand this.
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:21 pm

Rahula wrote:I had much faith in Dr.Peacock's teachings. I like to keep that faith.


Why not put all your faith in the Triple Gem? Leave none of it for anything else and you won't get confused.

:anjali:
Peace,
James
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:53 pm

Rahula wrote:
My whole point is, if he got this wrong (I have not come to that conclusion yet), what else he might had taken wrong.
I will not be confidant in his teaching as I'll have doubt.

Do you think he was correct on his 'Metta as a path to awakening' talks? If so can you please explain in details. This is very important to me. I had much faith in Dr.Peacock's teachings. I like to keep that faith. You seems to be agree with his teachings, as I notices in your previous post. Please help me understand this.
Metta can be a tool for awakening. You actually have been given a lot of information above to support this claim. But rather than worry about what we say, write to him directly, outlining your concerns. See what he has to say.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Rahula » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:54 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Rahula wrote:
My whole point is, if he got this wrong (I have not come to that conclusion yet), what else he might had taken wrong.
I will not be confidant in his teaching as I'll have doubt.

Do you think he was correct on his 'Metta as a path to awakening' talks? If so can you please explain in details. This is very important to me. I had much faith in Dr.Peacock's teachings. I like to keep that faith. You seems to be agree with his teachings, as I notices in your previous post. Please help me understand this.
Metta can be a tool for awakening. You actually have been given a lot of information above to support this claim. But rather than worry about what we say, write to him directly, outlining your concerns. See what he has to say.


I tried contacting Dr.Peacock but did not get any reply. That's why I'm trying it here.
And none of information mentioned on this thread so far seems to be convincing to me. They are either look mis-interpretation or mis-understanding of Buddhist teachings to me.

Thank you anyway :anjali:
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Rahula » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:25 am

Mkoll wrote:
Rahula wrote:I had much faith in Dr.Peacock's teachings. I like to keep that faith.


Why not put all your faith in the Triple Gem? Leave none of it for anything else and you won't get confused.

:anjali:


When looking at present day Buddhism it's hard for me to have faith in Triple Gem just like that. There are so may add on's, traditional and cultural influence, mis-interpretations etc. It's filled with mythology and brahmanism. If you ask me to have faith in Dhamma as it is, I'd rather forget about it.

Look at Agganna Sutta (http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/2.19-Agganna-S-d27-piya.pdf) for example. In Agganna Sutts Buddha expound about beginning or re-beginning of the world, it's completely not like Buddha's teachings. Sounds like nonsense, but some Buddhists take it literally.
It's completely contradict with Potthapada Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) where Buddha refuse to explain about cosmos. ( see this thread for a discussion on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14858&p=215265&hilit=Agganna+Sutta#p215265)

As Dr.Peacock points out Agganna Sutta is a Joke by Buddha, and shouldn't be taken literally. I like to think that way. That's why I had faith in him, as he helped me filtering out real teachings.

I'm not sure what had been Buddha's real teachings and I'm trying to get closer as possible. Dr.Peacock was my best resource so far, that's why I'm trying to clarify this here.

Thank you!
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:39 am

Rahula wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Rahula wrote:
My whole point is, if he got this wrong (I have not come to that conclusion yet), what else he might had taken wrong.
I will not be confidant in his teaching as I'll have doubt.

Do you think he was correct on his 'Metta as a path to awakening' talks? If so can you please explain in details. This is very important to me. I had much faith in Dr.Peacock's teachings. I like to keep that faith. You seems to be agree with his teachings, as I notices in your previous post. Please help me understand this.
Metta can be a tool for awakening. You actually have been given a lot of information above to support this claim. But rather than worry about what we say, write to him directly, outlining your concerns. See what he has to say.


I tried contacting Dr.Peacock but did not get any reply. That's why I'm trying it here.
And none of information mentioned on this thread so far seems to be convincing to me. They are either look mis-interpretation or mis-understanding of Buddhist teachings to me.

Thank you anyway :anjali:
I shrug my shoulders. Good luck with finding a teacher with whom you will agree with 100% on everything.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Mkoll » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:30 am

Rahula wrote:When looking at present day Buddhism it's hard for me to have faith in Triple Gem just like that. There are so may add on's, traditional and cultural influence, mis-interpretations etc. It's filled with mythology and brahmanism. If you ask me to have faith in Dhamma as it is, I'd rather forget about it.

All of the extraneous detritus that you're talking about is not the Dhamma. I'm not suggesting that you put faith in those "creeping things", far from it. The Triple Gem is sublime and I'm suggesting to have faith in that sublimity.

Have faith that the Buddha is the perfectly and rightly self-awakened one, the best of men, the greatest teacher.
Have faith that the Dhamma was realized by the Buddha via direct knowledge and that he taught it for the absolute happiness of you, of me, and of all beings.
Have faith that the Sangha has practiced well and realized the truth of the Dhamma. And that you, too, can eventually attain that state with dedicated practice.

That's all I'm suggesting.

Limitless is the Buddha, limitless the Dhamma, limitless the Sangha. There is a limit to creeping things: snakes, scorpions, centipedes, spiders, lizards, & rats. I have made this safeguard, I have made this protection. May the beings depart. I pay homage to the Blessed One, homage to the seven rightly self-awakened ones.
AN 4.67

:anjali:
Peace,
James
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby santa100 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:11 pm

Rahula wrote: When looking at present day Buddhism it's hard for me to have faith in Triple Gem just like that. There are so may add on's, traditional and cultural influence, mis-interpretations etc. It's filled with mythology and brahmanism. If you ask me to have faith in Dhamma as it is, I'd rather forget about it.

It's a matter of what "source" you're reading or listening to. Instead of looking at present day add on's, present day mis-interpretations, etc.. why not focus on the teaching of the Great Teacher himself? Get a copy of "In the Buddha's Words" and read thoroughly. That source is an effort to get as close to the original teaching as possible. Hopefully your experience with the Triple Gem will change as you read the book..
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Re: Did John Peacock got 'Karaniya Metta Sutta' wrong?

Postby Rahula » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:57 am

I thank each one of you who took time to answer my question.

Thank you very much :anjali:
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