Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Robert: in a split second literally billions of different votthapanna cittas , none the same, have arisen and passed away>which ones were free? (If you want to discuss that we can move to a different thread).

The life-span of a citta is termed, in the
Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is a
temporal unit of such brief duration that, according
to the commentators, in the time that it takes for
lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of
mind-moments can elapse. ....Within the
breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its
momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning
the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through
the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of
consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters
in a stream.” [page 156 of CMA]

(1) Uninstructed (1) p. 595 Samyutta Nikaya Vol 1 (translated by Bodhi)
"
But that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and consciousness'
arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just
as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets
that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still
another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality'
and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day
and by night. [note 157]
"
[note 157: Spk: 'By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca):
This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and
during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (annadeva
uppajjati, anna.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that
arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that
arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be
taken to mean that one thing arises and some thing altogether
different, which had not arisen, ceases. "Day and night" is said by
way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration than the
previous one (i.e. the one stated for the body). But one citta is
not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the
time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and
cease (1 koti=10 million).

tiltbillings wrote:Billions? Says who?

daverupa wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:Billions? Says who?

Whomever is responsible for the Saratthappakasini, Buddhaghosa & some earlier scholastics.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p157393

tiltbillings wrote:I think it is an Indian thing.

Santirana-citta is succeeded by votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness). Votthapana is another function of citta; the votthapana-citta determines the object in the sense-door process.

daverupa wrote:To my mind, it's the sort of thing that's uselessly discussed in detail and with vigor, as it has no bearing on the gradual path. "Like a monkey swinging from branch to branch" is a perfectly serviceable level of detail.

kirk5a wrote:mmph. Never mind billions, can someone please explain how one might notice just ONE of these votthapana cittas? Maybe we could start there and work our way up to noticing that there is more than one in a split second.

mikenz66 wrote:

kirk5a wrote:mmph. Never mind billions, can someone please explain how one might notice just ONE of these votthapana cittas? Maybe we could start there and work our way up to noticing that there is more than one in a split second.

Dozens per second isn't hard to notice, in my experience. Just pay attention...

With sufficient calm and mindfulness, conciousness arising at only one sense door at a time also seems quite plausible. This, of course, is only the case if one is using a practice that is following the rise and fall of phenomena, rather than an absorbed-concentration type practice.

kirk5a wrote: Can you explain in some way what distinguishes a votthapana citta? And so you're saying it's not hard to notice at least 24 "cittas per second" .... these are mental events, which you can actually make out a couple dozen happening per second?

mikenz66 wrote:

kirk5a wrote: Can you explain in some way what distinguishes a votthapana citta? And so you're saying it's not hard to notice at least 24 "cittas per second" .... these are mental events, which you can actually make out a couple dozen happening per second?

I'm not worried about technical descriptions like votthapana citta. I'm simply saying that with some practise it's not hard to see the various sense-door objects rising and falling with some rapidity. As I said, what people see it may depend on how they practice. A practice of focussing on the breath in order to become absorbed probably won't be as effective for this purpose as focussing on continuously noticing what is arising, or doing Goenka-style body scanning.

I really don't see how noticing objects reasonably rapidly could be controversial. I don't think my practice is anything special.

kirk5a wrote:

mikenz66 wrote:

kirk5a wrote: Can you explain in some way what distinguishes a votthapana citta? And so you're saying it's not hard to notice at least 24 "cittas per second" .... these are mental events, which you can actually make out a couple dozen happening per second?

I'm not worried about technical descriptions like votthapana citta. I'm simply saying that with some practise it's not hard to see the various sense-door objects rising and falling with some rapidity. As I said, what people see it may depend on how they practice. A practice of focussing on the breath in order to become absorbed probably won't be as effective for this purpose as focussing on continuously noticing what is arising, or doing Goenka-style body scanning.

I really don't see how noticing objects reasonably rapidly could be controversial. I don't think my practice is anything special.

Ok but I'm still trying to understand a couple dozen [what, exactly] are happening per second? Are you referring to the stream of little micro-pinpricks of sensation happening around the body?