cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Babadhari
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Babadhari »

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring


Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Carl Sagan
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... eDtU2Ku.99

:sage:
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
daverupa
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:If it's not possible to make such analyses experientially, I don't see why there would be so much in the Suttas and Abdhidhamma about it.
And yet those are two sources where references to billions of mind-moments are exactly not found... knowing thoughts as they arise, persist, and subside is possible, just as watching a monkey take hold of, swing on, and release a branch is possible.

But for instantaneous mind-moments of infinitesimal duration to be known as they persist is to start talking nonsense.

:shrug:
Last edited by daverupa on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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retrofuturist
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:If it's not possible to make such analyses experientially, I don't see why there would be so much in the Suttas and Abdhidhamma about it.
And yet those are two sources where references to billions of mind-moments are exactly not found...
:rofl:

Exactly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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kirk5a
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

The question I had was about "votthapana cittas" in particular. I don't feel any closer to being able to recognize these experientially, much less how many might occupy a split second.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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mikenz66
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

kirk5a wrote:The question I had was about "votthapana cittas" in particular. I don't feel any closer to being able to recognize these experientially, much less how many might occupy a split second.
Well, yes, I agree. I can't comment on that from experience.

However, that there are many mind-body processes are going on in split seconds doesn't require any particular Dhamma knowledge or training to figure out, and with a little training it is much clearer. I'm puzzled that anyone would have a problem with that. But some of the questions above seem to call these rather simple observations into question. Surely the Dhamma is about taking the teachings and comparing it with experience...

I'm inclined to think that the "billions and billions" is just hyperbole. However, I would not rule out that it is possible to discern these processes much faster than I currently can.

:anjali:
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kirk5a
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

mikenz66 wrote: Well, yes, I agree. I can't comment on that from experience.

However, that there are many mind-body processes are going on in split seconds doesn't require any particular Dhamma knowledge or training to figure out, and with a little training it is much clearer. I'm puzzled that anyone would have a problem with that.
I don't have a problem with that.
But some of the questions above seem to call these rather simple observations into question.
Which simple observations are you referring to? The topic is "cittas arise and pass away billions per instant" - obviously, not a simple observation. We still don't even have a first hand report of anyone observing an actual votthapana citta in the wild yet.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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mikenz66
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

Well, OK, but it depends on how you look at it.

I start with the assumption that the Commentaries/Visuddhimagga are based on experience of adepts, and try to understand what it is saying in those terms. I wouldn't have a problem believing that it was possible to to observe hundreds per second and I wouldn't be surprised that that is the sort of experience that the texts are based on.

On the other hand, if you start with the assumption that the Commentaries are just literary fiction, and/or think that the important thing about Dhamma in intellectual analysis of suttas, then you will most likely come to a different conclusion.

Even leaving aside the Commentaries, the suttas themselves talk about rise and fall of phenomena (I gave just one quote above). And since we are asked to "see for ourselves", it would be productive, I think, to ask how these statements in the suttas and Commentaries can be related to our experience.

:anjali:
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daverupa
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by daverupa »

I started from the assumption that the Nikayas were sufficient, in the sense of their being particular leaves not left on the tree, if you take my meaning. The lack of the billions is noteworthy in this respect. I can see the commentaries being exactly the same sort of documents as this forum and modern Buddhisms generally, which is to say a relatively modern take on the available materials. But the Nikayas were this already, taking shape for a hundred or more years, with different ideas about what to do with those materials taking shape in (proto-)abhidhamma-vinaya-s, finally coalescing into scholastic differences in the commentaries and then even later, the Vsm.

It's just so baroque, to go all that way only to end up with an insane number and a bewildering un-experience-able here-and-now assertion that the Buddha never brought off the simsapa tree, if it was even there to be pulled, and one which had at best a local relevance in the context of scholastic debating in ancient India.

:shrug:

One may as well read Western metaphysics, imo, if one is going to spend one's time examining these things, "savant experiences" notwithstanding. I simply consider time here and now to be a more precious resource.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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SDC
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by SDC »

So time is on the level with dhamma?

That seems silly.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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mikenz66
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:I started from the assumption that the Nikayas were sufficient, in the sense of their being particular leaves not left on the tree, if you take my meaning. The lack of the billions is noteworthy in this respect. ... .
Yes, I get that. However, rapidly rising and falling phenomena is definitely in the suttas, and is quite readily observable experientially. If you take out the hyperbolic "billions" and replace it by "hundreds" or "thousands" I don't really see a problem.

Is there no interest in discussing how the sutta and Abhidhamma texts relate to actual experience?

:anjali:
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by chownah »

mikenz66 wrote:Well, OK, but it depends on how you look at it.

I start with the assumption that the Commentaries/Visuddhimagga are based on experience of adepts, and try to understand what it is saying in those terms.
Experiences of adepts probably includes the experience of the Buddha speaking to Ajahn Mun. Should one be looking in these places for illumination of the meanings of the Suttas?
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mikenz66
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

You don't take any advice from others with more experience? The advice I see in the Suttas includes:
"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
It would be odd to claim that one is following the Buddha's teachings and then to ignore such passages...

Of course, I can't go and talk to the authors of the Commentaries, but I don't see any reason to view them as intrinsically less reliable than modern interpretations of the suttas.

:anjali:
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robertk
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by robertk »

From the suttas:
Life, person, pleasure, pain — just these alone
Join in one conscious moment that flicks by.
Devas, though they live for eighty-four thousand kalpas,
Are not the same for two such moments....

Breakup of dhammas is foredoomed at their birth;
Those present decay, unmingled with those past.
They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go;
Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.
(Mahāniddesa 42)
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robertk
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by robertk »

why should it be exaggeration
Mind(nama) arises and falls faster than matter and even something as crude as a computer processes quite fast:
Another supercomputer called MDGrape-3, built by the Japanese company RIKEN, has a theoretical maximum speed of 1 petaflop (1 guadrillion operations per second),
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question54.htm
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kirk5a
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

mikenz66 wrote: Yes, I get that. However, rapidly rising and falling phenomena is definitely in the suttas, and is quite readily observable experientially. If you take out the hyperbolic "billions" and replace it by "hundreds" or "thousands" I don't really see a problem.

Is there no interest in discussing how the sutta and Abhidhamma texts relate to actual experience?
That was my interest. But we don't seem to be getting anywhere with regard to the citta in question here.
Santirana-citta is succeeded by votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness). Votthapana is another function of citta; the votthapana-citta determines the object in the sense-door process. After it has determined the object it is succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. The conditions through which it arises are different from the conditions for santirana-citta which is produced by kamma. Votthapana-citta is not vipaka and it is not kusala or akusala but it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. As we have seen, the votthapana-citta is actually the mano-dvaravajjana-citta which performs the function of votthapana in the sense-door process and is then called votthapana-citta. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta performs two function in the mind-door process it performs the function of adverting to an object through the mind-door, and in the sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidha ... bhi-13.htm
I'm still waiting for someone to describe this citta in a way that can be related to experience. "determines the object in the sense-door process" ... means what, exactly?
:shrug:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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