Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the language you used suggested to me insight as views, ideas, outlooks, conclusions, lines of reasoning, worldviews... and as such, unreliable, and not truly eliminating doubt. I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
I was speaking at this sort of level...
Kalama Sutta wrote:When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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kirk5a
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
I agree, there are apparently a variety of ways in which one can be deceived about mental and physical phenomena. However, I was simply reflecting on the difference between views, ideas, convictions and the like (conventional "insights") which are rather unreliable (one could change one's mind about such things in the future), and the actuality of one's own basic experience.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote: I was speaking at this sort of level...
Kalama Sutta wrote:When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said.
Sounds good indeed. In line with what I was thinking about, first of all, one knows the above for oneself (not simply "believing" such), and secondly, what one knows are qualities (not beliefs or narratives), which actually do lead to welfare and happiness. So that is going well beyond simply hanging on to some "narrative of liberation"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Viscid
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
Truth.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
daverupa
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by daverupa »

Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...

I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.

I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.

/ :soap:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dave,

I've been reading some of it (there is too much of it for me to really digest all of it). Particularly your contributions, and replies to your contributions. :smile:

As you say, it's all over the place on all sorts of issues, most of which seem to have little to do with the OP.

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...

I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.

I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.

/ :soap:
What thread are you referencing here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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imagemarie
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by imagemarie »

"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by mikenz66 »

imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
Yes, over on Dharma Wheel:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040
It is now up to 33 pages, though most of that does not directly address the topic. Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...

:anjali:
Mike
daverupa
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates. I'm not sure why self-reflexivity has even come up as a hinge issue there... the early Buddhist texts seem to have been mostly, though perhaps politely, ignored.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Kim OHara
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by Kim OHara »

tiltbillings wrote:
imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.
Not necessarily. Many of our politicians don't manage such a feat :toilet:
But probably, since you are who you are. :smile:

:coffee:
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chownah
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by chownah »

daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates.
From Tibetan tenet system perspective, which is hardly an accurate portrayal of Indian Yogachara. It all makes me very glad not to be a Mahayanist.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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