Mercy killing and kamma

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby Aloka » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:01 am

patipatti wrote:
So rescue invertebrates instead, since they lack a’ backbone’ or dorsal nerve cord. :jumping:



My opinion is that its a mistake to think that other sentient beings aren't capable of feeling distress and pain.

Lobsters and crabs are invertebrates ....

"A lobster thrown live into boiling water may suffer for many seconds, said a scientist who argued Thursday that crustaceans can likely feel pain.

A set of experiments on crabs revealed that the animals are willing to give up a valuable dark hiding place in order to avoid an electric shock, an indicator of pain, said a study in the Journal of Experimental Biology.

Crabs in the study learned to avoid the shelter in a laboratory tank where they had repeatedly received a shock, said study leader Bob Elwood of Queen's University in Belfast.

"They were willing to give up their hideaway in order to avoid the source of their probable pain."

Elwood told AFP it was impossible to prove beyond doubt that the animals feel pain, but the research results were "consistent" with pain and added: "Perhaps we should err on the side of caution".

Elwood said billions of prawns, crabs and lobster are caught or reared for human consumption every year and treated in "very extreme ways."

"Crabs have their claws torn off and the live crab is thrown back in the sea. Lobsters and prawns have the front half of the body torn off from the abdomen which is kept for the meat. The nervous system in the head and thorax is still functional an hour later."

The biologist said many people assumed that because crustaceans do not have a brain resembling that of vertebrate animals, they could not feel pain.

"Crustaceans are invertebrates and people do not care about invertebrates," he said.

"More consideration of the treatment of these animals is needed as a potentially very large problem is being ignored."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/scientis ... z2eTjBCgjh



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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:01 pm

I guess it comes down to if there is a moral absolute. A rule we can follow in all circumstances.


In this respect I am sceptical


I don't see how "don't kill" can be moral in every circumstance


Just like "do not lie"

If it was ww2 and I was hiding a Jewish child in my basement, would it be moral to tell the SS that they were there when they come knocking, or not? Or is truth relative to circumstance?

Would it be moral to see a child taken off to austiwch, just so I could say I was a good Buddhist and didn't lie?
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:16 pm

clw-uk wrote: I guess it comes down to if there is a moral absolute. A rule we can follow in all circumstances.


I think one should try to treat other sentient beings in the way that one would like to be treated oneself.
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby mirco » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:29 pm

clw_uk wrote:But a human can experience dukkha, learn from it and be free from it. Animals can't.

Would you agree that animals experience dukhha? (pain, fear, etc.)

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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:37 pm

mirco wrote:
clw_uk wrote:But a human can experience dukkha, learn from it and be free from it. Animals can't.

Would you agree that animals experience dukhha? (pain, fear, etc.)

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Dukkha seems to be a human construct, quite different from pain. The only animal, it seems, that experience dukkha are humans.


Now if you ask of animals experience pain, I would say it seems so.

Do animals experience fear, which seems to be an emotional response distinct from pain, I would say depends on the animal (and what you define as an "animal")
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:39 pm

Aloka wrote:
clw-uk wrote: I guess it comes down to if there is a moral absolute. A rule we can follow in all circumstances.


I think one should try to treat other sentient beings in the way that one would like to be treated oneself.



That problem with the golden rule is that it's only as good as the other person.

That is, I couldn't punish a serial killer according to the golden rule, because I wouldn't want to be treated that way.


So it seems to fail as an absolute as well
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby mirco » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:44 pm


clw_uk wrote:Now if you ask of animals experience pain, I would say it seems so. Do animals experience fear, which seems to be an emotional response distinct from pain, I would say depends on the animal (and what you define as an "animal")

Do you think, birds experience fear?

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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:48 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Aloka wrote:
clw-uk wrote: I guess it comes down to if there is a moral absolute. A rule we can follow in all circumstances.


I think one should try to treat other sentient beings in the way that one would like to be treated oneself.



That problem with the golden rule is that it's only as good as the other person.

That is, I couldn't punish a serial killer according to the golden rule, because I wouldn't want to be treated that way.


So it seems to fail as an absolute as well


I wasn't refering to a "golden rule", its just my personal opinion.

If someone is a serial killer it doesn't follow that one should kill them as well - Angulimala was an example of a reformed serial killer.


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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:01 pm

I know but what you stated is the golden rule

"do unto others what you expect to be done onto you"

Now you don't have to kill anyone. What I mean is that the whole concept/system of justice falls apart If we take the golden rule to its maxim.

I can't punish X because I wouldn't want that done to me (be it imprisonment for theft or capital punishment).


You see the pitfall?
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:06 pm

mirco wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Now if you ask of animals experience pain, I would say it seems so. Do animals experience fear, which seems to be an emotional response distinct from pain, I would say depends on the animal (and what you define as an "animal")

Do you think, birds experience fear?

Image



I have no idea, do you?


Yet even if, somehow you could prove that a bird experiences fear, it doesn't follow it experiences dukkha.


And if you can prove that, you have to prove that it can learn from dukkha and be free from it.


So you have all your work ahead of you to prove what you imply, I look forward to your attempt :)
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:10 pm

clw_uk wrote:

Yet even if, somehow you could prove that a bird experiences fear, it doesn't follow it experiences dukkha.
Huh?
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

Yet even if, somehow you could prove that a bird experiences fear, it doesn't follow it experiences dukkha.
Huh?



How do you define fear? An emotional response, or a reaction to stimuli out of ignorance? Or both, or something else?

My point is that dukkha appears to be a human construct, something animals dont seem to experience and reflect upon.
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:46 pm

clw_uk wrote:
My point is that dukkha appears to be a human construct, something animals dont seem to experience and reflect upon.
How do you define dukkha? Do animal want pain of being harmed? I have seen dogs and cats suffer from separation anxiety.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:04 pm

How do you define dukkha?


It seems to be a human construct, based upon reflection. By that I mean I have never seen, or heard from, a Buddhist salmon. Much in the same way I haven't heard much from a philosophical salmon.


Do animal want pain of being harmed?


I have no idea what animal "want", which seems to be another human reflective construct. I can observe that animals shy away from pain though. However this is perfectly explainable in terms of biological evolution and not in terms of dukkha, it seems.

I have seen dogs and cats suffer from separation anxiety.


Maybe so, but is that dukkha? That can be attributed to an evolutionary response.
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:05 am

clw_uk wrote:
How do you define dukkha?


It seems to be a human construct, based upon reflection. By that I mean I have never seen, or heard from, a Buddhist salmon. Much in the same way I haven't heard much from a philosophical salmon.
Obviously you do not know about the Salmon of Knowledge.


Do animal want pain of being harmed?


I have no idea what animal "want", which seems to be another human reflective construct. I can observe that animals shy away from pain though. However this is perfectly explainable in terms of biological evolution and not in terms of dukkha, it seems.

I have seen dogs and cats suffer from separation anxiety.


Maybe so, but is that dukkha? That can be attributed to an evolutionary response.
In other words, you are just guessing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:14 am

Obviously you do not know about the Salmon of Knowledge.


:rofl:

In other words, you are just guessing.



I'm giving an opinion. Am I claiming dogmatic truth though, no



Also I am asking for your input, yet (once again) you seem to shy away from a response, so once again you seem to withhold your deck and only give a shadow of a point :/
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:30 am

clw_uk wrote:
Obviously you do not know about the Salmon of Knowledge.


:rofl:

In other words, you are just guessing.



I'm giving an opinion. Am I claiming dogmatic truth though, no



Also I am asking for your input, yet (once again) you seem to shy away from a response, so once again you seem to withhold your deck and only give a shadow of a point :/
I just do not find debating with you very edifying. We can let it go at that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Obviously you do not know about the Salmon of Knowledge.


:rofl:

In other words, you are just guessing.



I'm giving an opinion. Am I claiming dogmatic truth though, no



Also I am asking for your input, yet (once again) you seem to shy away from a response, so once again you seem to withhold your deck and only give a shadow of a point :/
I just do not find debating with you very edifying. We can let it go at that.





Sure you can duck out :)


Although a question does arise that if you don't find my posts "edifying" then why post at all ... Strange


Oh well :shrug:


So moving on ...
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:39 am

clw_uk wrote:

Although a question does arise that if you don't find my posts "edifying" then why post at all ... Strange
Curious to see if you actually had an answer. Nope.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

Although a question does arise that if you don't find my posts "edifying" then why post at all ... Strange
Curious to see if you actually had an answer. Nope.



Your reply to my original question must have got lost in cyberspace :/

As I said, answer me and I will answer you. That's how a debate usually goes ...
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