Mercy killing and kamma

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:56 am

Greetings Sarath,

No, kamma is to be known... not regarded exclusively as a matter of faith.

AN 6.63 wrote:"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.

If you don't wish to know it and would rather regard it exclusively as a matter of faith, you're welcome to do so but I choose to do otherwise.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14521
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby maitreya31 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:02 am

clw_uk wrote:
maitreya31 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Your also confusing the animal experience of dukkha with the human experience of it. Humans can be free from dukkha, animals can't.

From the point of view of one life . There isn't much difference between humans and animals . The suffering of terminal illness can be ended in both animals and humans by killing the victim . Instant nirvana .



Straw man alert!


Firstly my questioning doesn't have a background premis of "one life"


Secondly even if there was more than one life, animals still cant be free from dukkha in this life. I never read a sutta ehere the Buddha preaces to birds like St Francis of Assisi

You are the one with a straw man . I never said that you are claiming in this thread " there is only one life" . You said that humans can be free from dukkha but animals can't be free from dukkha . I was pointing out this is true from a certain point of view . That's true from the point of view of rebirth . According to the sutras humans can attain liberation from suffering and animals cant but from the point of view of one life there isn't a difference between humans and animals . Both will attain liberation from suffering at death .
Last edited by maitreya31 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
maitreya31
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:36 am

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:06 am

Greetings,

Annihilation isn't nibbana, and nowhere does the Buddha make such a claim.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14521
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby maitreya31 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:08 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Annihilation isn't nibbana, and nowhere does the Buddha make such a claim.

Metta,
Retro. :)

I agree with that . :thumbsup:
maitreya31
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:36 am

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:10 am

Greetings,

So what did you mean by this then...?

The suffering of terminal illness can be ended in both animals and humans by killing the victim . Instant nirvana .

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14521
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby maitreya31 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

So what did you mean by this then...?

The suffering of terminal illness can be ended in both animals and humans by killing the victim . Instant nirvana .

Metta,
Retro. :)

Well Nirvana traditional definition is the destruction of defilements to attain the unconditioned state beyond the round of rebirths . Of course this term is meaningless in the context of annihilation. The Buddha never use the concept of nirvana in this way . My point was that both animals and humans will attain liberation of suffering at death if there is only one life . Don't take me too literally maybe I used that word wrongly . :)
maitreya31
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:36 am

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby SarathW » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:51 am

Hi Retro
Ok. Just forget about the Kamma and the Buddhism.
Just use your common sense.
I will give you two examples:

==============
One of my friends sister went to a coma. Doctors said that she will die soon. But the family never gave up.
They fed the patient and clean her for four months while she was in a coma.
She woke up after four months and now enjoying a very happy life.
==============
Mr friend’s wife also went in to a coma. Doctors said that she was dead.
But he never gave up.
He kept her alive for two weeks and she gained consciousness.

====================
What I am trying to say is we should help but not interfere with others life.
SarathW
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby santa100 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:52 am

They administer morphine to wounded soldiers on the battle field to relieve severe pain. There's gotta be some kind of similar drug at the veterinary office for animals. So always bring it to the vet office first, if they can cure the poor bird, that's great; else they can inject morphine or something to at least numb the pain and let it fade away peacefully and naturally. No bad kamma, one did his best and everyone's happy. Problem solved..
santa100
 
Posts: 1384
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:25 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Retro
Ok. Just forget about the Kamma and the Buddhism.
Just use your common sense.
I will give you two examples:

==============
One of my friends sister went to a coma. Doctors said that she will die soon. But the family never gave up.
They fed the patient and clean her for four months while she was in a coma.
She woke up after four months and now enjoying a very happy life.
==============
Mr friend’s wife also went in to a coma. Doctors said that she was dead.
But he never gave up.
He kept her alive for two weeks and she gained consciousness.

====================
What I am trying to say is we should help but not interfere with others life.


End of life care is not this simple. The dying process is often excruciating, and what is truly merciful does not fit so tightly within some petty morality.
“The authentic and pure values – truth, beauty, and goodness – in the activity of a human being are the result of one and the same act, a certain application of the full attention to the object.”
– Simone Weil (Gravity and Grace)

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:40 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:

End of life care is not this simple. The dying process is often excruciating, and what is truly merciful does not fit so tightly within some petty morality.



Having seen two humans and an animal dying from cancer, I agree.
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3250
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby SarathW » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:46 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:
SarathW wrote:Hi Retro
Ok. Just forget about the Kamma and the Buddhism.
Just use your common sense.
I will give you two examples:

==============
One of my friends sister went to a coma. Doctors said that she will die soon. But the family never gave up.
They fed the patient and clean her for four months while she was in a coma.
She woke up after four months and now enjoying a very happy life.
==============
Mr friend’s wife also went in to a coma. Doctors said that she was dead.
But he never gave up.
He kept her alive for two weeks and she gained consciousness.

====================
What I am trying to say is we should help but not interfere with others life.


End of life care is not this simple. The dying process is often excruciating, and what is truly merciful does not fit so tightly within some petty morality.


Hi AB
We are dying every moment. I am dying while I am writing this.
Life is painful. I got a splitting headache write now.
Taking your life or someone else is not the answer.
SarathW
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby SarathW » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:47 am

Aloka wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:

End of life care is not this simple. The dying process is often excruciating, and what is truly merciful does not fit so tightly within some petty morality.



Having seen two humans and an animal dying from cancer, I agree.


Are you suggesting that we should kill all sick people?
SarathW
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby dagon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:07 am

hi

I have posted a related subject - i did not want to drift this thread
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=18505

sorry, the post is long !!!

metta
paul
dagon
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 am

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:55 am

SarathW wrote:
Aloka wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:

End of life care is not this simple. The dying process is often excruciating, and what is truly merciful does not fit so tightly within some petty morality.



Having seen two humans and an animal dying from cancer, I agree.


Are you suggesting that we should kill all sick people?



That's not what I said.

Additionally, terminally ill people in hospital in this country are heavily medicated with morphine and have access to a morphine pump, so its hardly a "natural" death.
Last edited by Aloka on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3250
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby cooran » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:03 am

Hello all,

This might be of interest. I realise this article concerns beings who have had a human rebirth, and the OP concerns a being who was in a rebirth in the animal (bird) realm.

Letting Go or Killing: Thai Buddhist Perspectives on Euthanasia
http://www.eubios.info/EJ82/ej82c.htm

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7055
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby Feathers » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:51 am

I went and asked about this over at Dhammaloka forum, and got pointed to this thread, which I found helpful: http://community.dhammaloka.org.au/showthread.php/1091-Question-on-putting-down-pets

'Ask the pet' seems a good principle - trying to be sensitive to their needs, trying to make sure we're not doing it out of selfish reasons.
Feathers
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:52 am

Greetings,

Feathers wrote:'Ask the pet' seems a good principle - trying to be sensitive to their needs, trying to make sure we're not doing it out of selfish reasons.

I like that ~ emphathy.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14521
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:47 pm

Regarding kamma, Ajahn Amaro gave a talk last year at Amaravai Monastery, called "Who is pulling the strings". (at the link, the audio after the Q & A session with the same title)

http://www.amaravati.org/teachings/audio_compilation/2083

He mentions about how a deterministic view about karma can be very common amongst westerners as well as asians..

Its an enjoyable talk and well worth a listen.

.
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3250
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby patipatti » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:16 am

Hello,

When I was confronted with the choice of rescuing a bird caught by a cat or just seeing nature as it is, I left the cat alone. By rescuing the bird to "save it" and then having to kill it, the kamma is yours.

Life eats life.

Be well
How do you practice taking care of each other? Here I am!
User avatar
patipatti
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: Mercy killing and kamma

Postby patipatti » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:46 am

Greetings.

The general anatomy and physiology of all vertebrates is essentially the same with regards to how vertebrates feel pain. Nociceptors are sensory neurons that are found in any area of the body that can sense pain either externally or internally. Many chemicals are released both at the site of injury and in the nerves.

So rescue invertebrates instead, since they lack a’ backbone’ or dorsal nerve cord. :jumping:

Be well
How do you practice taking care of each other? Here I am!
User avatar
patipatti
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:57 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests