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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:44 am
by Beautiful Breath
Ñāṇa wrote:
Beautiful Breath wrote:But the mādhyamikas have 'proved' their case....haven't they? I see nothing anywhere that contradicts or refutes them. If there is, let me know - would help with my Theravadain/Mādhyamikas Nerosis!
I think Madhyamaka can be useful, and doesn't contradict anything in the Pāli Nikāyas. And as Tilt suggests, there's no need to posit dhammas as "ultimate realities" in the first place.

As for whether or not mādhyamikas have made their case: they have if you accept mādhyamika reasoning. Of course, not everyone does accept mādhyamika reasoning, and that's fine too.

I have yet to find a logical refutation of the mādhyamika reasoning myself...seems pretty water tight to me....(imho - of course).

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:55 pm
by Nyana
Beautiful Breath wrote:So would it be fair to say mādhyamika can sit comfortabley in a Theravadin context?
Sure.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 6:56 pm
by tiltbillings
David J. Kalupahana's Mulamadhyamakakarika of Nagarjuna: The Philosophy of the Middle Way might be of interest in that it is a translation of and a look at the Mulamadhyamakakarika from a stand point of the Pali Canon andthe Agamas. While Western Tibetan Buddhists tend to hate it because it does not conform to the usual Tibetan understanding of things (but we need to keep in mind that the Tibetans did not get everything correct, such as the Yogachara). While Kaluphahana's translation and discussion may not be perfect, it is a worthwhile read. Also, Kalupahana uses a very old Chinese commentary that approaches things a bit differently from the usual Tibetan manner.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:41 pm
by Alex123
Beautiful Breath wrote:I have yet to find a logical refutation of the mādhyamika reasoning myself...seems pretty water tight to me....(imho - of course).
How about BUDDHIST ILLOGIC: A Critical Analysis of Nagarjuna’s Arguments
The present essay demonstrates the many sophistries involved in Nagarjuna’s arguments. He uses double standards, applying or ignoring the laws of thought and other norms as convenient to his goals; he manipulates his readers, by giving seemingly logical form (like the dilemma) to his discourse, while in fact engaged in non-sequiturs or appealing to doubtful premises; he plays with words, relying on unclear terminology, misleading equivocations and unfair fixations of meaning; and he ‘steals concepts’, using them to deny the very percepts on which they are based.link

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:20 pm
by tiltbillings
Alex123 wrote:
Beautiful Breath wrote:I have yet to find a logical refutation of the mādhyamika reasoning myself...seems pretty water tight to me....(imho - of course).
How about BUDDHIST ILLOGIC: A Critical Analysis of Nagarjuna’s Arguments
The present essay demonstrates the many sophistries involved in Nagarjuna’s arguments. He uses double standards, applying or ignoring the laws of thought and other norms as convenient to his goals; he manipulates his readers, by giving seemingly logical form (like the dilemma) to his discourse, while in fact engaged in non-sequiturs or appealing to doubtful premises; he plays with words, relying on unclear terminology, misleading equivocations and unfair fixations of meaning; and he ‘steals concepts’, using them to deny the very percepts on which they are based.link
Probably not.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:23 pm
by Alex123
tiltbillings wrote:Probably not.
Have you read his book? I am just saying that some people don't consider Nagarjunas arguments to be as compelling as some claim they are.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:27 pm
by tiltbillings
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Probably not.
Have you read his book? I am just saying that some people don't consider Nagarjunas arguments to be as compelling as some claim they are.
If one is going to critcize Nagarjuna, it would help to really look at what Nagarjuna is saying and in the context of what he saying. This book is self-published drivel by someone who knows little of Buddhism and even less of Nagarjuna.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:29 pm
by Alex123
tiltbillings wrote:This book is self-published drivel by someone who knows little of Buddhism and even less of Nagarjuna.
It examines the logic that Nagarjuna is using. Prove it that it is "drivel". It just sounds like baseless accusations.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:37 pm
by tiltbillings
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If one is going to critcize Nagarjuna, it would help to really look at what Nagarjuna is saying and in the context of what he saying.
He is criticizing logic that Nagarjuna is using.
tiltbillings wrote:This book is self-published drivel by someone who knows little of Buddhism and even less of Nagarjuna.
It examines the logic that Nagarjuna is using. Prove it that it is "drivel".
No. I am not going waste my time with another tedious and fruitless debate with you over something you know little about. If you want a discussion of Nagarjuna, go to Dharma Wheel. And you might actually read a carefully done analysis of and commentary on Nagarjuna by someone who knows of what they are speaking. This stupid book is not it, but I see why it would appeal to you.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:48 pm
by Alex123
tiltbillings wrote:No. I am not going waste my time with another tedious and fruitless debate with you over something you know little about. If you want a discussion of Nagarjuna, go to Dharma Wheel. And you might actually read a carefully done analysis of and commentary on Nagarjuna by someone who knows of what they are speaking. This stupid book is not it, but I see why it would appeal to you.

Can you actually refute his arguments (or show link that refutes them) or are you just using "that book is stupid" as your argument?

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:57 pm
by tiltbillings
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No. I am not going waste my time with another tedious and fruitless debate with you over something you know little about. If you want a discussion of Nagarjuna, go to Dharma Wheel. And you might actually read a carefully done analysis of and commentary on Nagarjuna by someone who knows of what they are speaking. This stupid book is not it, but I see why it would appeal to you.

Can you actually refute his arguments (or show link that refutes them) or are you just using "that book is stupid" as your argument?
And you are well enough versed in Nagarjuna to say that this book does an accurate and objective job of presenting Nagarjuna? This is a poorly resourced and researched book by someone who knows next to nothing of Buddhism, as the footnotes make so abundantly clear. Present this book on Dharma Wheel. Start an argument there. That would be interesting.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:09 pm
by Alex123
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Can you actually refute his arguments (or show link that refutes them) or are you just using "that book is stupid" as your argument?
And you are well enough versed in Nagarjuna to say that this book does an accurate and objective job of presenting Nagarjuna? This is a poorly resourced and researched book by someone who knows next to nothing of Buddhism, as the footnotes make so abundantly clear. Present this book on Dharma Wheel. Start an argument there. That would be interesting.
It presents Nagarjuna's arguments. It doesn't critique Buddhism. It just analyzes the logic that Nagarjuna is using. You are free to rebuke those arguments point by point, or cut-and-paste rebuttals here.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:16 pm
by tiltbillings
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Can you actually refute his arguments (or show link that refutes them) or are you just using "that book is stupid" as your argument?
And you are well enough versed in Nagarjuna to say that this book does an accurate and objective job of presenting Nagarjuna? This is a poorly resourced and researched book by someone who knows next to nothing of Buddhism, as the footnotes make so abundantly clear. Present this book on Dharma Wheel. Start an argument there. That would be interesting.
It presents Nagarjuna's arguments. It doesn't critique Buddhism. It just analyzes the logic that Nagarjuna is using. You are free to rebuke those arguments point by point, or cut-and-paste rebuttals here.
I am not wasting my time on a useless book. And this is the end of this conversation.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:18 pm
by Aloka
Alex123 wrote: It presents Nagarjuna's arguments. It doesn't critique Buddhism. It just analyzes the logic that Nagarjuna is using. You are free to rebuke those arguments point by point, or cut-and-paste rebuttals here.
I'm sorry but I'm getting rather lost trying to follow this thread. What has this got to do with Sujin Boriharnwanaket?


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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:28 pm
by Alex123
Aloka wrote:
Alex123 wrote: It presents Nagarjuna's arguments. It doesn't critique Buddhism. It just analyzes the logic that Nagarjuna is using. You are free to rebuke those arguments point by point, or cut-and-paste rebuttals here.
I'm sorry but I'm getting rather lost trying to follow this thread. What has this got to do with Sujin Boriharnwanaket?
It was reply to post http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p245688