Downloading books you have had physical copies of

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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby dagon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:29 am

mal4mac wrote:
Ben wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack


Jack,
My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.
kind regards,

Ben


Then why, as site admin, do you allow illegal download of copyright works from this site?


Hi mal4mac and all

Simple answer is they don’t, from what I have seen (willing to corrected) copyright work appears on this site in 2 formats:

1. Where work that maybe subject to copyright is quoted from an external source. That use of material comes under fair dealing because of use of a limited part of the work and for the purpose of study.. The work being referenced so that we may better understand the providence of the source material also provides an opportunity for the holder of the copyright to benefit through promotion.

2. Where links are included in post to external sites. Dhamma wheel and its administration have no control over the external sites – down loads from them are a matter between the copyright owners, those sites and those who download from them. If this site was promoting the breach of copyright then it becomes more problematic – but kindly read what you were responding to.

As posters to this site we should exercise care and judgement is what links we provide – with reference to the TOS, Dhamma and the laws that apply (that includes both the USA and the jurisdiction that we are utilising the forum in.

Jack I know that you have the best intention (otherwise you would not have started this topic). As for the OP all I can say is shades of grey !!!

Ben, thank you for all your work and the metta that you show all of us.

metta
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:53 am

Greetings,

appicchato wrote:
Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.


Pearls...

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:26 am

I saw your post in the thread in the resource guide Mac.

This is what I have to say:

I don't think you're breaking any precepts if you read something that is copyright protected, if the status is ambiguous, given that most books can be rented from a public library - In my opinion viewing copyrighted material online is the same thing. It's just like streaming music on youtube - You don't go and download that music - You're just viewing it online. Downloading it on the other hand would be taking possession of what is not freely given. But I wouldn't see viewing the article as a breech of such precepts.

Furthermore, precepts are something personal. Up to a point, one shouldn't be worried about what others are doing with their precepts, that is a waste of energy, there is a line beyond which others violation becomes harmful to the community at large, but this is not one of those cases imo. One could be using one's time to focus on one's own problems rather than concerning oneself with the policies of a website.

with metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby convivium » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:18 am

Blackbird, your argument goes something as follows:
Suppose someone A has regular access to the internet.
Suppose someone B doesn't.
A references copyrighted texts online without downloading.
B references copyrighted texts, the same amount of time etc., offline by downloading them.
You would claim that B is morally wrong and A is morally right.
B is wrong by virtue of not being connected to the internet in referencing the data (of course, either way the data is a non-diminishable resource).
So, downloading any copyrighted text once, to be accessed offline, is inherently worse than downloading continually and accessing it online; by virtue of what exactly?
My guess is that you will say it wasn't freely given to be accessed offline.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:27 am

Your logic is not without merit Convinuum

In the case example I was talking about the work was copyrighted and had not been given permission for his work to be published on the website in question. I don't know whether that means it's a copyright violation for someone to view it or not. But my suggestion is that because public libraries can buy copies of these texts, and allow others to view and borrow them for free - Or indeed if I buy a book, there's nothing wrong in me lending it to someone to view - But they haven't paid for it either. So in my opinion viewing something online isn't really a breech of the precepts. Some might disagree and that's okay. As you point out, when you look at it in terms of what's the difference between viewing it online and offline there's not much difference.

Some authors of copyrighted material might give permission for their work to be shared on sribd or something for example, but not for the product to be downloaded, same as the youtube thing. I'm not really here to debate the merits of this - Or to argue whether there is a moral or logical difference between accessing material online or downloading it. I couldn't give a toss really - What I do care about is whether I'm practicing good sila, and I don't think I'm causing any issues to myself or others if I click on a link, read an article/book, and summarily find out that the copyright had not been given for the text to be published on that website - Which is what happened to mal4mac.

What I was saying was, at least for me - If I decided to download it, I would in my own mind be taking posession of the text, and seeing as it was not freely given, I would probably consider it a breech of sila. A breech that I have (to be completely honest) been guilty of numerous times over the years, and even recently (just in case one might have thought I was trumpeting from atop a high horse)

TL;DR: The difference is possession.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:42 am

Dude you're not going to jail, and you're not going to be fined thousands of dollars for accidentally viewing some book on a Buddhist website on a book about Buddhism. And nothing's going to happen to this forum for allowing people to post links like that. Not when there are thousands of forums on the internet who's sole purpose it to promulgate copyrighted material. Don't you think they would be targeted long before some Buddhist forum in the distant corners of the internet gets hit for allowing a member to post a link to monastery websites misuse of a copyrighted material?

The idea that Dhamma Wheel or one of it's users would be had up for copyright infringement by a Buddhist author for viewing his book on a Sangha website is ridiculous...

It's simply not going to happen.

If you were downloading a dodgy torrent on pirate bay that was uploaded by RIAA/MPAA trappers who insert tracking codes in then it might be a different story - But you're not. A Buddhist author is not going to prosecute you for accidentally reading a book found on a monasteries website. The very worst case scenario is that he contacts the Monastery website and asks them to remove it.

Why on earth do you think he would bother taking the Sangha to court, and then having them subpoenaed to provide IP addresses of everyone who's accessed it (probably thousands of people) and then bringing litigation against all of them - That would cost hundreds of times the amount he has every earned from that book, in legal/court fees.There's just no way it's going to happen buddy. This is the most farfetched worry I have heard this year. Literally.

The only person that's caused you harm is you, not any member here... You've caused yourself harm for worrying too much and causing yourself completely unnecessary stress, and for intending the negative thoughts that some member has hurt/harmed you by posting a link that you clicked on. He hasn't harmed you... There's NOTHING to worry about.

So just relax :)
Last edited by BlackBird on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:55 am

dagon wrote:
mal4mac wrote:Then why, as site admin, do you allow illegal download of copyright works from this site?

Simple answer is they don’t...


Sorry, I should have been more precise, and I should have asked the question to Ben and all moderators, as Ben can't be expected to perform all the moderation.

"Why do you allow direct links to copyright protected pdf files from this site?"

I'm worried than Ben might end up in clink, and me with a hefty fine, and his excellent forum taken down - is this small stuff?

Maybe there's legal precedent that says "forum owners cannot be prosecuted for direct links to copyright protected pdf files on other sites"? If so, Ben is safe, if Ben doesn't know, if I was, Ben I'd check. Or maybe he can live with it? In any case I've done my bit. Now I'll relax :)

metta to all...
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:00 am

Dude... Seriously.

Answer this: Why on earth, would an administrator of a small forum in the middle of nowhere on the internet, which nobody knows about, be prosecuted by a Buddhist author, for allowing links to be posted to a Sangha website that contains copyrighted material of his work?

Why would he even bother doing that, when he can contact the Sangha website of the monastery in question, and ask them to remove it.

What on earth would cause someone to be so petty and vindictive. Not to mention the virtual certainty that the case would be thrown out of court because the legislation that covers this type of breech (the DMCA - Digital millenium copyright act) - Would require him to first request the moderators to simply remove the post - Which I can almost guarantee they would do. That must be done before any legal action can be taken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Mi ... ng_content

The article itself only mentions one historic case of an organisation being prosecuted for linking to copyrighted material, and even then it was only because of a refusal to remove said material. But even then the writer has provided no reference, so even that might never have happened. The moderators here are so far removed from the risk of prosecution, they couldn't be further if they tried. So what does that say about you? The threat to you is even further removed.

So nobody has harmed you. Nobody has harmed Ben. Nobody's getting fined and nobody is going to jail. That is the reality.

This is a perfect case of somebody who does not understand Copyright legislation becoming unnecessarily agitated and worried at a non-existent threat of legal action.

metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:23 am

BlackBird wrote:Dude you're not going to jail, and you're not going to be fined thousands of dollars for accidentally viewing some book on a Buddhist website on a book about Buddhism.


Maybe not in New Zealand. Read that "Independent" article, I'm in the UK, and I wouldn't be surprised to have "men in black" suits knocking on my door sometime soon...

BlackBird wrote:And nothing's going to happen to this forum for allowing people to post links like that. Not when there are thousands of forums on the internet who's sole purpose it to promulgate copyrighted material. Don't you think they would be targeted long before some Buddhist forum in the distant corners of the internet gets hit for allowing a member to post a link to monastery websites misuse of a copyrighted material?


Who knows? In any case, this 'I'm unlikely to get caught, so it's alright' argument is very dubious, I could take up house burglary using the same argument

BlackBird wrote:The idea that Dhamma Wheel or one of it's users would be had up for copyright infringement by a Buddhist author for viewing his book on a Sangha website is ridiculous...


If he's prepared to sell his books, and take lots of money for being a professor, who knows? Is he a Buddhist? Many academics writers on Buddhism are not. Even if he is forgiving, I can't see "Oxford University Press" being so forgiving, and the publishers call the shots...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_ ... _v._Becker

BlackBird wrote:If you were downloading a dodgy torrent on pirate bay that was uploaded by RIAA/MPAA trappers who insert tracking codes in then it might be a different story - But you're not. A Buddhist author is not going to prosecute you for accidentally reading a book found on a monasteries website. The very worst case scenario is that he contacts the Monastery website and asks them to remove it.


They put Georgia state university on trial! Do you think they'd not be prepared to take on a monastery or Dhamma Wheel?

BlackBird wrote:The only person that's caused you harm is you, not any member here...


It was a joint effort, I wouldn't have worried if that pdf link hadn't been there...
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:37 am

daverupa wrote:Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.


Has the UK agreed to abide by these guidelines? What if Oxford University Press decided to prosecute a UK based moderator? Can't see how US law would have any leverage at all in that situation...
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:40 am

Mal4mac.

Did you know if you put a tinfoil hat on you're 30% less likely to receive a visit from the men in black? That way their gamma ray detectors can't penetrate your brain and reach the implant they put in you as a baby. Better put your ID card in tinfoil too they've chipped that also, it will lead them directly to you!

:lol:

That's how farfetched this is getting.

I will repeat, for good measure - Since it seems it didn't sink in the first time:

Under the DMCA (which is the relevant piece of legislation here, given that the copyrighted materials are hosted on a US server by the Wat Florida website, and furthermore given that this website is also owned and operated in the US) the course of action is simply to request a take down of such a link. If that request has not been proven to be sent and recieved and deliberately ignored/refused, no prosecution can take place.

I have detailed at length with a highly logical reasoning why the author of this book would not spend the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars trying to subpoena the Sangha into giving up the thousands of IP adresses that have accessed that page, and then summarily attempting to prosecute them. There is no legal precedence for this. There would be no hope of achieving any success and finally, the author would have absolutely no motivation to do so, considering A) he's Buddhist and it would unwholesome to do so, B) It would be a huge waste of time and money with no apparent incentive to do so. I very much doubt he has even a fifth of the necessary funds it would take to finance such an incredibly stupid idea as it would be to attempt to prosecute thousands of people like you in individual court cases.

Furthermore, have you actually read the article you linked me about Georgia State vs. Oxford Uni Press?

The plaintiffs claimed that Georgia State University engaged in "systematic, widespread and unauthorized copying and distribution of a vast amount of copyrighted works" through its e-reserves system.[2] Georgia State asserted that its system did not infringe copyright because its uses were fair use.[3]
The district court issued a 350-page findings of fact and conclusions of law on May 11, 2012, finding that in almost all cases the alleged infringements were fair use.[4] In a subsequent decision the court deemed that Georgia State University was the "prevailing party" and ordered the plaintiffs to pay GSU's attorney's fees.[5] Notwithstanding the "prevailing party" decision, the plaintiffs characterized the case as "flawed" but not a "loss",[6] but nonetheless filed an appeal.[7]


The bits I have highlighted are important:
1. The plaintiffs were taking GST to court over something much much more serious than simply hosting links to copyrighted material. They were arguing that GST's online library was essentially hosting and allowing for download hundreds of thousands of e books for which they did not have permission. The two things are worlds apart.

2. Georgia State was actually doing nothing illegal, my university here at Otago offers the same service to it's students - One of allowing them to borrow ebooks online for a period, as do many universities around the world. One is able to do so under 'fair use' - The same legal framework that allows public libraries to offer their books to lend to members.

3. The court rejected O.U.P case, and ordered them to pay GST's legal fees, they may have appealed, but in any case the situation does not look good for them, nor for anyone who would seek to bring a similar case against an organisation in future.

4. You know the maximum O.U.P could legally seek from G.S.T was an injunction? Do you know that they were only seeking a court mandated cease and desist?

So in summary, the case you have cited is completely irrelevant to what we're talking about here, as there are a world of differences between the supossed 'infringement' of hosting a link on a discussion forum/clicking it, and hosting a system that allows people to download hundreds of thousands of ebooks and in any case, the plaintiffs lost the case! But even if they had won, all they would have achieved was to make G.S.T cease and desist. In DW's case that would simply mean the removal of any link to copyrighted material.

So to suggest that 'because that court case happened, what's stopping 'them' from going after Dhamma Wheel?' is so thoroughly logically fallacious that it does not warrant any more mention.

I'm sorry Mal4Mac, but Buddhist authors and copyright lawyers have better things to do with their time than hunt you down for clicking a link. They have actual purposeful activities to occupy their day with. So abandon this fantasy - It's unskillful and purposeless. Nobody has ever been fined or sent to jail for clicking on a link that contains copyrighted material, and they're not about to start doing it, not even for someone as important as yourself ;)

So please, relax - Give it up. No men in black will be knocking at your door for this. Nobody's putting Ben in jail, nor David (who is the actual owner btw) and neither will you be fined money you don't have. All's good and well in the world.
Last edited by BlackBird on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby convivium » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:08 am

if you download things on university servers you might have problems.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:10 am

I might add that a post from much earlier in this thread seems to have been thoroughly ignored.

Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.


Case closed.

metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:32 am

BlackBird wrote:Mal4mac.
Did you know if you put a tinfoil hat on you're 30% less likely to receive a visit from the men in black?... That's how farfetched this is getting.


From that Independent article I linked to:

"Bob May, a British PR, found out the hard way how seriously record companies are taking the issue. While copying an unreleased album for work, he accidently left a file-sharing site open on his computer. It was only a few minutes before he realised his mistake but in that time a track had already been downloaded. "A couple of weeks later, on Christmas Day, I got a phone call from a man employed by the record company who wanted to know how the song had been leaked. He called every day for a week and insisted on meeting," May explains. "Two guys in long black coats turned up at my work, trying to intimidate me. We resolved it, but they said if it happened again, they'd use the full force of the law."

BlackBird wrote:Under the DMCA (which is the relevant piece of legislation here, given that the copyrighted materials are hosted on a US server by the Wat Florida website, and furthermore given that this website is also owned and operated in the US) the course of action is simply to request a take down of such a link. If that request has not been proven to be sent and recieved and deliberately ignored/refused, no prosecution can take place.


Do you have an in depth knowledge of UK law? If the crime is committed by a UK person against a UK company, do you think that British company will stop just because "the tool" involved was an American server? Maybe... but you'd have to site precedent to convince me.

BlackBird wrote:... finally, the author would have absolutely no motivation to do so, considering A) he's Buddhist and it would unwholesome to do so, B) It would be a huge waste of time and money with no apparent incentive to do so....


The publisher would... did you see my link to the CUP & OUP vs. Georgia University? Because Georgia University had state protection the publishers had no chance of getting any money in damages... the incentive is to use high profile cases to highlight book stealing...

BlackBird wrote:... copyright lawyers have better things to do with their time than hunt you down for clicking a link.


That's probably true, but who knows, they might decide, "let's make an example of this guy..."

BlackBird wrote:"Nobody has ever been fined or sent to jail for clicking on a link that contains copyrighted material...


".... the jury in Jammie Thomas-Rasset's federal retrial found the 32-year-old Minnesota mother liable for willfully infringing the copyrights of 24 songs she downloaded off the Web and awarded record labels $1.92 million."
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/19 ... -per-song/

"The RIAA has sued thousands in its legal campaign against file sharing."
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby convivium » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:38 am

if you're not in an internet cave, then you won't get caught pirating.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:41 am

BlackBird wrote:I might add that a post from much earlier in this thread seems to have been thoroughly ignored.

Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.


Case closed.


Nope, I looked closely at that and responded to it... please scroll up, if you can see this, it should be there now.

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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby convivium » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:44 am

when's the last time pariyati or wisdom, etc. have sued someone for filesharing? if anything, they'll just ask to take it down..
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby mal4mac » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:52 am

BlackBird wrote:4. You know the maximum O.U.P could legally seek from G.S.T was an injunction? Do you know that they were only seeking a court mandated cease and desist?


Yes... because it is a state institution, they could extract money from me! Also a British judge is more likely to look more kindly on the publishers of O.U.P... probably went to the same college (!)

BlackBird wrote:there are a world of differences between the supossed 'infringement' of hosting a link... and hosting a system that allows people to download hundreds of thousands of ebooks


Further information ... it's not just one link there *are* dozens...
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:01 pm

Greetings all,

Regarding DW copyright practice:

When we discover a post is linked to a copyrighted resource - we take it down.
Repeat offenders are 'counselled' and if they continue to link to copyrighted resources then we use disciplinary action to assist in modifying that behaviour.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:07 pm

Mal4Mac I can see you've ignored most of the important parts of my argument, probably a case of tacit acknoledgement despite the fact you have continued to attempt to argue your conspiracy theory proposition. I will give you a fuller response later, but for now I will respond to this point:

Mal4Mac wrote:
BlackBird wrote:"Nobody has ever been fined or sent to jail for clicking on a link that contains copyrighted material...


".... the jury in Jammie Thomas-Rasset's federal retrial found the 32-year-old Minnesota mother liable for willfully infringing the copyrights of 24 songs she downloaded off the Web and awarded record labels $1.92 million."
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/19 ... -per-song/

"The RIAA has sued thousands in its legal campaign against file sharing."


Yet again we have another logical fallacy, far from the first we have encountered in your arguments and probably not the last: It is a red herring.

Do you know why?

Because downloading 24 songs off the web, is not even close to the same thing as clicking a link that contains copyrighted material.

So it stands: Nobody has ever been proscecuted for merely clicking a link that contains copyrighted material. So that's 0/2 in terms of example cases you have presented.

I consider myself a reasonable guy, I'm not liable to hyperbole, or getting overly excited about my interactions, so I say the following with no small amount of consideration:

The argument I have seen from you here in this thread, is the most ridiculous and farfetched 'what if' I have seen this year. Now given, I don't spend much time hanging out on conspiracy theory forums where people with similar ideas are likely to be found, but nevertheless, I have encountered one or two farfetched concerns and worries from people this year - And at least in their case the incident was possible - Your's is so highly improbable it verges on the impossible.

No publisher, no author has any financial incentive to bring a lawsuit against this website, or the thousands of people that have probably accessed the WatFlorida link. There is no legal precedence for doing so. No company in their right mind would try and forge a new path by targeting some unknown website in the wops of the internet and it's users, even on the remote chance that their legal team had gone crazy and decided to form a case from this type of 'breech' - They wouldn't target this website...Not when there are much bigger fish to fry, fish that might - Oh, I dunno - Actually have some assets worth seeking in damages? Furthermore, I have detailed in depth how the relevant legislation in this case prevents such a website as this from being prosecuted off the bat, the requirements are that beforehand the website would have to reject application from the relevant party to remove the offending link.

While there is not a DMCA in Europe (UK) there is equivalent legislation, while there is no formal take down clause unlike the US legislation, it is common practice to nevertheless send a take down request before pursuing such actions. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter about the EU legislation here, because given that DW is a US based website, in the entirely hypothetical example where a UK publisher wanted to seek damages from DW for posting a link to copyrighted material, they would need to do so under US legislation, which leads us neatly back to the DMCA.

And the absolute necessity for a take down notice to be served and rejected before any legal action can take place.

On the other side of the coin: The likelyhood of some publisher subpoenaing Wat Florida and obtaining your IP address, then bringing litigation against you and thousands of others in individual cases seeking damages is so farfetched and ridiculous (because of the extreme cost and lack of incentive) that it does not merit any further discussion.

Please don't take what could be considered harsh speech personally though, my issue is with your argument, not with you as a person :)

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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