Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by chownah »

Shaswata Panja,
I am still hoping that you will discuss your interpretation of the reference I gave which contains a teaching on caste......what do you think the Buddha was trying to teach there?

Also, I'm still hoping that you will discuss what it means that the Buddha denounced his familial lineage. I think I remember that Mr. Elst claimed that he never did this.........seems like what Mr. Elst wrote disagrees with the Scriptures. Would you like me to find the Scripture where the Buddha denounced his familial lineage so you can read it yourself?

chownah
last
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:46 pm

Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by last »

Shaswata_Panja wrote: Didnot he say that he is
not bringing something new but rather something
that the Noble Ones already taught and
discovered and were eventually forgotten? So that
means Vedics were alway encouraging amon
themselves to learn the teaching of Noble
Ones..show me one Brahmin who spat on Buddha
or planned to kill Him or tried to dishonour his
teachings or conspire against him..it was always
bad apples in is own Sangha (Devadutta) or from
some other monastics (like that female nun who
claimed to have been impregnated by Gautama
Buddha)
Why would Vedics be encouraging among themselves to learn something that will eventually be forgotten, and that too when they already had eternal Vedas bestowed upon them?
Vedics who did learn from the Buddha, not only gave up on Vedas but also the idea of anything being eternal which suggests why Sanskrit is almost a dead language.

Now why boast of a religion (Sanatana aka Vedic aka Hinduism) whose language i.e. Sanskrit, couldn't preserve itself and rather seeks mass language (Hindi) to express its ideas?
mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by mahat »

Shaswata,

1) Rishis of the Hindu tradition are known to have just about cursed everyone (God and Human) due to their lack of control of their anger and greed -- that shows a terrible lack of control and ethics and lack of understanding of TRUE DHARMA. They were not Buddhist Arahants, but the kind of rishis and gurus Buddha had no patience for. Shaswata_Panja would you like to begin with all the curses by your so called "Vedic Rishis" imposed on humanity and the gods? :anjali: You want to read mantras and teachings on Dharma from these guys??? Good luck to you! :thinking:

2)Now as to your assertion and Hindu assertion that Buddha simply rediscovered so called "Vedic" teachings from before, that's nonsense:

This is a complete misrepresentation of Buddha's teachings as far as the 4 Noble Truths are concerned:

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:

The 4 Noble Truths is the most important thing -- it is True Dharma which covers the highest heavens to the lowest hells.

3) Buddha's evolution of the world is entirely different from the Hindu one. Hindus say we were born from Brahma, some from his feet, his thighs,etc.

Buddha in the Aganna Sutta claims every human is descended from Abhassara Devas and are not pieces of a whole -- we are high Gods and whole, no human is less or part of another. Buddha teaches us wholeness, Hindus always like to divide either on the basis caste and that you need to get married because you are half a person-- so Hindus say a human is part of a body part of Brahma and than even half of that (male/female) -- pathetic human indeed is the Hindu human. Of course the only Dharma for the woman is to worship her husband. :rolleye:

4)As for whether or not Buddha was a Hindu, this should be the final nail on that one -- The answer is a resounding NO! He was purely Buddha, he carried no baggage, completely in the present as Buddhists should be:

A brahman called Dona encountered the Buddha shortly after his enlightenment and, struck by the Buddha’s serenity, asked him:

“Sir, are you a god?”

“No, brahman.”

“Are you an angel?”

“No, brahman.”

“Are you a yakkha?

“No, brahman.”

“Are you a human being?”

“No, brahman.”

“When asked, ‘Are you a god?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman…’ When asked, ‘Are you an angel?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman..’ When asked, ‘Are you a yakkha?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman…’ When asked, ‘Are you a human being?’ you answer, ‘No, brahman…’ Then what sort of being are you?”

“Brahman, the defilements by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a god: those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palm tree stump, no longer subject to future arising. The defilements by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be an angel… a yakkha… a human being: those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palm tree stump, no longer subject to future arising.

“Just as a blue or red or white lotus born in water, grows in water and stands up above the water untouched by it, so too I, who was born in the world and grew up in the world, have transcended the world, and I live untouched by the world. Remember me, brahman, as a Buddha.” :clap:
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Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Kusala »

Old topic, but I thought I'd share this article. It's a long read, but worth it... Part 1: https://thediplomat.com/2019/01/unravel ... om-part-1/

Part 2: Dravidians and Aryans https://thediplomat.com/2019/01/where-i ... nd-aryans/

Part 3 : What Is Caste? https://thediplomat.com/2019/01/where-d ... -is-caste/

Part 4 : How Unique is Indian Society? https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/where-d ... n-society/



"...Speaking to me, Razib Khan points out that “it is important to note that caste systems develop everywhere. For example, in the post-Roman era, there was a division between the Saxons and Celtic British. But, they are not strongly religio-ideological. Over time they break down. The weird thing about India is the persistence and deep time depth.” Similar phenomenon did not occur in other civilizations for a variety of reasons. For example, in China, “the Han had an assimilative ideology. Not just integrative [as was the case in India and its castes]. This is explicit in old Confucian sayings. Barbarians can become civilized.” India’s integrative ideology is highly primed for the preservation of caste distinctions, local gods and manifestations of deities, and heterogeneity in general.

On the other hand, intermixing between castes in India has parallels in other parts of the world, especially in areas where extremely distinct groups quickly came into contact. According to Khan, admixture in India between castes “was 1 percent or less for 1,500 years…basically Jim Crow levels of cultural separation.” Similar to the one-drop rule adopted by many states in the American south, anyone with admixture between upper and lower castes was generally assigned to the lower castes to prevent the mixture of lower caste genetic material into the higher castes.

Similar phenomenon can be observed in Latin America, particularly countries like Mexico that large populations of mixed Native Americans and Europeans (mestizos): there is a similar gradation in Mexico, with social status and proportion of European ancestry relative to native ancestry being correlated. Yet, as Khan points out, Mexico could not fully become India because of the shorter time scales involved and because there is no ideological justification for such watertight castes there: “everyone [was] Catholic.” It does not take long for a population to homogenize: in the United States, the “current rate of [racial] intermarriage is now 10 percent (more if you count unmarried couples) per generation. Within 300 years, that will eliminate difference.” For there to be so much difference between Indian castes indicates how successfully intermarriage between jatis was prevented for thousands of years. As geneticist David Reich writes, there were likely many “Romeos and Juliets over thousands of years of Indian history whose loves across ethnic lines have been quashed by caste.”
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