The Benefits & Drawbacks of Pali

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Mr Man
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Mr Man »

danieLion wrote: Take it as you wish.
Hi danieLion
I asked the question as I thought it was relevant to the OP and the topic not because it is relevant to me. Not sure why a straight answer is so hard.
:)
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Kamran
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Kamran »

danieLion wrote: The Buddha and the dhamma are the "source," not a language.
Unfortunateley, the Buddha is unavailable to answer questions because he died over 2,500 years ago :)

What we have, and interestingly, what are still being discovered, are documents which are the result of oral transmissions in various languages including pali, sanskrit, gundari, chinese, etc.

If interested, I would highly recommend Bikhu Analayo's comparative analysis lectures. I think the value of learning the languages that the dhamma has been written will be apparent when listening to this course.

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... es2012.htm
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Kamran,
I've listend to about half so far. I feel annoyed that you presumed I hadn't heard of them, and their content has little to do with the importance of Pali. If anything, they de-prioritize Pali.
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Too many great Buddhist teachers have not mastered Pali--and many others have not even come close--for me to think it should be placed above using translations to guide our practice.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote:Too many great Buddhist teachers have not mastered Pali--and many others have not even come close--for me to think it should be placed above using translations to guide our practice.
I have mixed feelings about this. For me, I'd rather spend time on practice and reading than to spend a lot of time mastering Pali idioms.

However, for teachers it may be a different story. I presume that if you're talking about Theravadin teachers above you're referring mostly to non-monastic and presumably Western teachers. I've come across very few Bhikkus who don't have a reasonable knowledge of Pali.

While the recent fashion for historical and comparative studies is interesting, it doesn't change the fact that we have a complete Canon, Commentary, Sub-Commentary, and living tradition in Theravada. And most of that is quite inaccessible without Pali. I don't need to personally read all that, but I appreciate having the work of dedicated teacher-scholars (especially Bhikkhu Bodhi) who do, and have shared their knowledge in English.

:anjali:
Mike
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Kamran
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Kamran »

Its certainly better to read the texts in translation than not to read them at all.

But if you enjoy reading the suttas, why not try learning Pali?

In English speaking countries most people do not learn additional languages, so it may seem to be more difficult for them.

However, Pali is an Indo-European language, and the Pali Text Society has published everything in the Latin script, so there is no need to learn Pali script.
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BlackBird
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by BlackBird »

Kamran wrote: so there is no need to learn Pali script.
I don't believe there is one.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Kamran wrote:But if you enjoy reading the suttas, why not try learning Pali?
I usually enjoy reading the suttas and I usually enjoy learing Pali. It's not a matter of enjoyment. It's a matter of priorities. When I can't keep up with my Mexican maintenance man's Spanish, we don't stop and have a Spanish lesson. He just starts speaking English.
Sylvester
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Sylvester »

Hmm, without some Pali, would one know how to interpret the 5th Precept? I see some really wonky interpretations out there that try to take advantage of a supposed loophole that exists only in English translations ("intoxicants that cause heedlessness"). See how BB now translates the Precept in the AN.
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Kare
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Kare »

I find this thread rather strange and unreal. But maybe it's only me, being baffled by seeing someone working so hard to defend and justify ignorance.
Mettāya,
Kåre
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SDC
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by SDC »

danieLion wrote:Too many great Buddhist teachers have not mastered Pali--and many others have not even come close--for me to think it should be placed above using translations to guide our practice.
In conjunction, not above.

And it's not so much "mastering Pali" as it is to get the most out of the literature. If the translations are enough for you that's awesome.

EDIT - Just to echo Mike, I'm not sure what teachers your referring to.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Sylvester wrote:Hmm, without some Pali, would one know how to interpret the 5th Precept? I see some really wonky interpretations out there that try to take advantage of a supposed loophole that exists only in English translations ("intoxicants that cause heedlessness"). See how BB now translates the Precept in the AN.
How does he? I don't have a copy of AN translation.
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Kare wrote:I find this thread rather strange and unreal.
Don't worry about it. That's just the collapse of your clinging to a belief happening.
Kare wrote:But maybe it's only me, being baffled by seeing someone working so hard...
Hard? :rofl: Nothing hard about it.
Kare wrote:...to defend and justify ignorance.
Ignorance includes thinking your way of viewing things is how everyone else should see view them.
Last edited by danieLion on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

SDC wrote:
danieLion wrote:Too many great Buddhist teachers have not mastered Pali--and many others have not even come close--for me to think it should be placed above using translations to guide our practice.
In conjunction, not above.

And it's not so much "mastering Pali" as it is to get the most out of the literature. If the translations are enough for you that's awesome.

EDIT - Just to echo Mike, I'm not sure what teachers your referring to.
Goldstein, Kornfield, Fella, Catherine...do I really need to go on?
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Mr Man
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Mr Man »

danieLion wrote:When I can't keep up with my Mexican maintenance man's Spanish, we don't stop and have a Spanish lesson. He just starts speaking English.
Now if you had bothered to learn Spanish properly......
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