Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

I've added more of his talk to the quote.

porpoise wrote:Jason, it sounds like you're familiar with Thanissaro's ideas, so could you say briefly what evidence he provides to support the assertion that becoming means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience? I can't see any support for this idea in sutta descriptions of dependent origination, so presumably this relates to the use of bhava in other contexts?

Based on current English translations, I can't find "direct" sutta support either.

I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.

As some suggested before, I also translate it as "existence". Existence as in the usual interpretation. That makes it all a lot clearer, at least to me. Then again, I don't think dependent origination is meant to explain some moment-to-moment process, so I don't need to go into troubles finding another translation. Now simply, as long as there is craving, there will be new existence.

One teacher told me that becoming means "being a person who experiences something."

Aloka wrote:I've added more of his talk to the quote.

The difficulty I still have with this interpretation is that it depends on birth and death being psychological ( mental ). But in the suttas birth and death are clearly described in physical terms - which logically means that bhava ( their condition ) is a process with both physical and mental aspects, not just a mental process.

SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.

I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.
I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.

porpoise wrote:

SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.

I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.
I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.

Right on, porpoise. To each their own.

Perhaps we could venture into a discussion of the entire PS at a later date.

Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)

lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)

Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.

polarbuddha101 wrote:

lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)

Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.

Yes, I believe bhavana is derived from bhava. Bhavana has the meaning of developing or producing mental states, which appears to support the translation of bhava as "becoming" - though as a nidana bhava seems to have a more specific meaning, as described in MN9 and SN12.2.