Re: Becoming
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:54 am
I've added more of his talk to the quote.
A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of Theravāda Buddhism
https://www.dhammawheel.com/
Based on current English translations, I can't find "direct" sutta support either.porpoise wrote:Jason, it sounds like you're familiar with Thanissaro's ideas, so could you say briefly what evidence he provides to support the assertion that becoming means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience? I can't see any support for this idea in sutta descriptions of dependent origination, so presumably this relates to the use of bhava in other contexts?
The difficulty I still have with this interpretation is that it depends on birth and death being psychological ( mental ). But in the suttas birth and death are clearly described in physical terms - which logically means that bhava ( their condition ) is a process with both physical and mental aspects, not just a mental process.Aloka wrote:I've added more of his talk to the quote.
I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.
Right on, porpoise. To each their own.porpoise wrote:I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.
I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.
Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)
Yes, I believe bhavana is derived from bhava. Bhavana has the meaning of developing or producing mental states, which appears to support the translation of bhava as "becoming" - though as a nidana bhava seems to have a more specific meaning, as described in MN9 and SN12.2.polarbuddha101 wrote:Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)