Becoming

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Spiny Norman
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Re: Becoming

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote:In the “non-three lives interpretation” of the paṭicca-samuppāda, bhāva is the idea that “I am” or “I exist”
Isn't the idea "I am" actually self-view, one of the fetters ( sakkāya-diṭṭhi )? I'm not clear how you're equating this to "bhava".

Also your interpretation of bhava seems to be contradicted by the way the nidanas are defined in MN9 and SN12.2 ( see my earlier post with sections from SN12.2 ).
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Becoming

Post by Spiny Norman »

Does the meaning of bhava depend on context?
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SDC
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Re: Becoming

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daverupa wrote:Is there any reason why we might want to differentiate bhava "being" from satta "being"?
Good call, Dave.

Bhāva - 'being' as a verb - the belief of the thought "I am".

Satta - 'being' as a noun - a living entity.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Becoming

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porpoise wrote:Isn't the idea "I am" actually self-view, one of the fetters ( sakkāya-diṭṭhi )? I'm not clear how you're equating this to "bhava".
Exactly. It is an affirmation of this self view. As I said, bhāva in the PS is pointing out a mistake in understanding.

EDIT - Well not exactly. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi a personality perspective, but even when eliminated there can still be a belief in a self. So not exactly, but yes it is along the same lines in regard to a misinterpretation of experience. I understand sakkāya-diṭṭhi as the character that is played and even though we stop behaving like that character, we still hold a more subtle and fundamental idea that there is a self.
porpoise wrote:Also your interpretation of bhava seems to be contradicted by the way the nidanas are defined in MN9 and SN12.2 ( see my earlier post with sections from SN12.2 ).
Not at all, although I can see that it appears so especially when trying to understand it using the three lives interpretation.
porpoise wrote:"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming."

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death."
When experience is seen as ‘being’, there is the thought “I am” or “I exist”. This is the affirmation in the belief in a self. When a self exists, this prompts the identification of where the self came from and where the self is going. In other words, “Where did I come from and where am I going?” First birth is seen as where “I” came from and then aging and death is seen as where “I” am going. Being > Birth > Aging and Death.

So it is due to the thought “I am” that brings about the idea of birth, the idea of death and, in turn, this whole mass of suffering. If there is no idea that “I am” – if a self is no longer identified in experience – then there will be no analysis of the birth and death of the self and no suffering.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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kirk5a
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Re: Becoming

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SDC wrote:So it is due to the thought “I am” that brings about the idea of birth, the idea of death and, in turn, this whole mass of suffering. If there is no idea that “I am” – if a self is no longer identified in experience – then there will be no analysis of the birth and death of the self and no suffering.
Maybe it's not quite what you mean, but the trouble goes deeper than easily spotted thoughts or ideas concerning "I am."
"In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'

"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even setting aside the work remaining for non-returners, an infant doesn't have any "ideas" per se, about self.
Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with the simile of the infant? For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion 'personality,' so how could personality view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to personality view lies within him.
-MN 64
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Becoming

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kirk5a wrote:Maybe it's not quite what you mean, but the trouble goes deeper than easily spotted thoughts or ideas concerning "I am."
Correct, kirka5. This is what upādāna explains in this particular interpretation – taṇhā prompts a distinction to be drawn in the experience. More specifically, a distinction between internal aspects of experience and external aspects experience, and these internal aspects (which are the five aggregates) receive special attention for obvious reasons. This special attention can be explained as an implied possessiveness (upādāna) over these internal aspects. This prompts this idea that what has been possessed is a self (bhāva). Taṇhā > upādāna > bhāva.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Spiny Norman
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Re: Becoming

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SDC wrote:
porpoise wrote:Isn't the idea "I am" actually self-view, one of the fetters ( sakkāya-diṭṭhi )? I'm not clear how you're equating this to "bhava".
Exactly. It is an affirmation of this self view. As I said, bhāva in the PS is pointing out a mistake in understanding.
I still don't understand how you're equating self-view ( an underlying tendency ), and bhava ( a process of becoming ).
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Re: Becoming

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SDC wrote:
porpoise wrote:Also your interpretation of bhava seems to be contradicted by the way the nidanas are defined in MN9 and SN12.2 ( see my earlier post with sections from SN12.2 ).
Not at all, although I can see that it appears so especially when trying to understand it using the three lives interpretation.
I'm not promoting the 3-lives model of DO, I'm just observing that the birth, aging and death nidanas are described in physical terms, not in terms of a self being born, aging and dying.
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kirk5a
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Re: Becoming

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SDC wrote:Correct, kirka5. This is what upādāna explains in this particular interpretation – taṇhā prompts a distinction to be drawn in the experience. More specifically, a distinction between internal aspects of experience and external aspects experience, and these internal aspects (which are the five aggregates) receive special attention for obvious reasons. This special attention can be explained as an implied possessiveness (upādāna) over these internal aspects. This prompts this idea that what has been possessed is a self (bhāva). Taṇhā > upādāna > bhāva.
That's interesting. I'm not sure about that characterization of internal and external though. Given the range of possibilities for bhava, surely the clinging, the possessiveness could apply to both internal and external, or even in the case where the distinction was gone. For example "the universe is my self."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: Becoming

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gavesako wrote:An relevant quote from Ajahn Thate:
There will be just bare awareness paired with its preoccupation in the present. ... This is the mind coming to its own level: the bhavanga.
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_ ... e_Path.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for that Bhante. In looking through that link, the glossary there defines "bhavanga" as:
Bhavanga: The mind's underlying preoccupation or resting state, which determines its state of being and to which it reverts in between its responses to stimuli.
Bhava-anga. This explanation of "underlying preoccupation" is helping me understand how there are sensual, form, and formless "preoccupations" and hence, bhava - being, existence. And the relationship of all that to craving.

My next question then is how do we understand the difference between sensuality bhava and form bhava?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Becoming

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That is not difficult to see: kama (sensual desires) --> sensual becoming (mainly preoccupied with the alluring "strands of sensuality" through the five senses); rupa-raga (passion for refined forms) --> form becoming (on the level of jhana or the deva realms); arupa-raga (passion for formless states) --> formless becoming (the formless spheres).
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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SDC
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Re: Becoming

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porpoise wrote:
SDC wrote:
porpoise wrote:Isn't the idea "I am" actually self-view, one of the fetters ( sakkāya-diṭṭhi )? I'm not clear how you're equating this to "bhava".
Exactly. It is an affirmation of this self view. As I said, bhāva in the PS is pointing out a mistake in understanding.
I still don't understand how you're equating self-view ( an underlying tendency ), and bhava ( a process of becoming ).
I corrected that in my edit, although I kept the original statement (the one you quoted) which is unclear. There is a difference between sakkāya-diṭṭhi and bhāva --- sakkāya-diṭṭhi is the assumption of an identity, while bhāva is the belief in the existence of a self. While this identity can be eliminated with stream entry, this belief in a self will still remain.
porpoise wrote:I'm not promoting the 3-lives model of DO, I'm just observing that the birth, aging and death nidanas are described in physical terms, not in terms of a self being born, aging and dying.
I apologizing for assuming.

This interpretation is an ongoing patchwork of ideas drawn mostly from the work of Ven. Punnaji and Ven. Ñāṇavīra. In this interpretation, the PS is not seen in physical terms and it is non-temporal. To quote Ven. Punnaji, “The paṭicca-samuppāda is a logical antecedental concurrence”, meaning that it is a logical, 12 part sequence happening all at once.

Believe me, although this interpretation is known, I realize it is sort of obscure and I am not trying to declare that it is correct. However, I will say that it makes a great deal of sense to me as opposed to other interpretations.

EDIT - Please let me know if anything is unclear and I will try to explain it.
Last edited by SDC on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Becoming

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kirk5a wrote:
SDC wrote:Correct, kirka5. This is what upādāna explains in this particular interpretation – taṇhā prompts a distinction to be drawn in the experience. More specifically, a distinction between internal aspects of experience and external aspects experience, and these internal aspects (which are the five aggregates) receive special attention for obvious reasons. This special attention can be explained as an implied possessiveness (upādāna) over these internal aspects. This prompts this idea that what has been possessed is a self (bhāva). taṇhā > upādāna > bhāva.
That's interesting. I'm not sure about that characterization of internal and external though. Given the range of possibilities for bhava, surely the clinging, the possessiveness could apply to both internal and external, or even in the case where the distinction was gone. For example "the universe is my self."
Oh, absolutely. However, it is ultimately the internal aspect that (I guess for our purposes here we could say) assumes the responsibility for parts of the external aspect in varying degrees, because the reaction (taṇhā) to these objects is seen as part of the internal aspect. In other words, the taṇhā is felt in the body, so no matter the object that prompts this reaction it is the reaction itself that ends up possessed and then is believed to be part of a self.

Now for the case where someone possesses everything, I suppose it is likely that they are choosing to ignore the distinction because they think it is the wrong way to think. Eventually they may completely convince themselves that it is true.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Spiny Norman
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Re: Becoming

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote:
porpoise wrote:I still don't understand how you're equating self-view ( an underlying tendency ), and bhava ( a process of becoming ).
I corrected that in my edit, although I kept the original statement (the one you quoted) which is unclear. There is a difference between sakkāya-diṭṭhi and bhāva --- sakkāya-diṭṭhi is the assumption of an identity, while bhāva is the belief in the existence of a self. While this identity can be eliminated with stream entry, this belief in a self will still remain.
I'm still not clear what basis there is for saying that bhava is the belief in the existence of a self. While there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of bhava in the suttas, it is described as operating in the 3 realms and it appears to be a dynamic process.

There may well be a relationship between self-view and bhava, but I don't think they are the same thing.
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Re: Becoming

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To be continued, porpoise. Heading to the hill country to slay some dragons in the monster storm that is about to clobber the east coast of the US. In other words, I'm going skiing. I look forward to continuing this discussion.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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