The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Virgo
Posts: 1270
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Virgo » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:In other words, what was utterly dismissed was the traditional metta practices as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga that talks about deliberately cultivating metta.

Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight. Deliberate meditation is not the problem at all, wrong concentration is. Jhana is a very high kusala. Obtaining it, and even attaining access concentration is extremely rare as the Visuddhimagga distinctly points out. Many times people take attachment as wholesome when trying to develop samatha and only develop wrong concentration because of it, this is of no help at all. People can also take attachment for metta, or other unwholesome mental factors as wholesome and so on. If the right wholesome cetasikas aren't present, there is no eight-fold-path present at a given time. Just because one is sitting attempting to focus on an object does not mean one is cultivating Right Concentration at all. As the texts make clear, no one at this time has the ability to master jhana (even the first jhana) to use it as a basis for insight, therefore thinking they are developing Right Concentration when they attempt samatha is rather wrong. It's just clinging, it's not detachment. It takes a very developed kind of panna to develop samatha. For example, if you enjoy watching TV, you cannot develop samatha bhavana to the level of jhana because you do not see the drawback in sense-desires enough (likewise a commentary states that monks who use money are incapable of attaining jhana). Only when you are truly detached and not forcing it can you develop samatha.

Kevin

User avatar
polarbear101
Posts: 852
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: California

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby polarbear101 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:58 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sam,

SamKR wrote:I
Perhaps if you want to pick that topic up, this might be a good place for it...

Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6322

I'm wary of sending this topic off-topic.

Metta,
Retro. :)


That thread is locked.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

User avatar
Paul Davy
Posts: 15997
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:05 am

Greetings,

It's now unlocked... (in the interests of stopping this current topic becoming a "tail chaser" too!)

Metta,
Retro. :)
“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago and a racist today." (Thomas Sowell)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 21855
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:13 am

Virgo wrote: Deliberate meditation is not the problem at all, wrong concentration is.
Wrong concentration, and what might that be? Wrong based upon what?

Obtaining it, and even attaining access concentration is extremely rare as the Visuddhimagga distinctly points out.
Quote the passage, please.

Many times people take attachment as wholesome when trying to develop samatha and only develop wrong concentration because of it, this is of no help at all. People can also take attachment for metta, or other unwholesome mental factors as wholesome and so on. If the right wholesome cetasikas aren't present, there is no eight-fold-path present at a given time.
Now here is the problem with your position, the assumption that everything must be perfect before meditation can be entered upon, and everything else is wrong meditation. What suttas actually support your position?

Just because one is sitting attempting to focus on an object does not mean one is cultivating Right Concentration at all.
And it does not mean that it wrong concentration, nor does it mean that it cannot become right concentration.

As the texts make clear, no one at this time has the ability to master jhana (even the first jhana) to use it as a basis for insight, therefore thinking they are developing Right Concentration when they attempt samatha is rather wrong.
Show us a sutta that states that, which brings us to:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In other words, what was utterly dismissed was the traditional metta practices as we see in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga that talks about deliberately cultivating metta.

Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.
You make my point. In the talk you linked the triumphalist smugness of the all the participants in that talk towards those who practice metta meditation finds its roots in this, it would seem.

It's just clinging, it's not detachment.
And here is your failure: you don't know what is in the heart/minds of those doing meditation. You have not a clue, and even Sujin says in that talk that you do not have a clue, but you -- and even she -- makes the serious mistake of assuming that you know. You do not.

It takes a very developed kind of panna to develop samatha.
Cart before the horse. I'll go with suttas
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2040
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:10 am

dhamma follower wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi dhamma follower

Couldn’t we say “meditation” and your “consideration” are equal?


Well, I would'nt call wise consideration or vipassana bhavana an activity. They arise by conditions, not because someone tries to do it. Yoniso manasikara doesn't arise because I decide: now I shall have wise yonisomanasikara. That is the gist of the argument so far. The difference comes when someone considers vipassana bhavana to mean an activiter called meditation that one can actively do.


Hi dhamma follower
So when you said "I would not be able to assert to myself that her views are right if there had not been enough consideration from my own part." So that consideration was "Yoniso manasikara" and that "Yoniso manasikara" happened because the right conditions were there? It was not an activity? Amd the "consideration" was not touched or tainted?

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2040
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:30 am

Virgo wrote:Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.

Hi Virgo
Who is the "We"?

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 21855
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:34 am

Mr Man wrote:
Virgo wrote:Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.

Hi Virgo
Who is the "We"?
The Sujin followers, I would guess, given that the talk linked by Virgo was a Q&A with Sujin and her followers, they believe stuff like what Virgo has written in his msgs.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2040
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Virgo wrote:Absolutely not. We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight.

Hi Virgo
Who is the "We"?
The Sujin followers, I would guess, given that the talk linked by Virgo was a Q&A with Sujin and her followers, they believe stuff like what Virgo has written in his msgs.

Hi Tilt,
It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 21855
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:26 am

Mr Man wrote:It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.
That impression is certainly reinforced by the linked Q&A with Sujin.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 1754
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:56 am

Mr Man wrote:[
Hi Tilt,
It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.

Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?

I wonder have you ever met any other people that have similar ideas to a teacher? Or would you say this is a unique phenomena ?

For your interest in Sujin Boriharnwanket and her views on Metta, have you read thhis book:
http://www.amazon.com/Metta-Kindness-Bu ... 1897633149
also availble free here: http://openlibrary.org/works/OL9867081W/Metta

this work Deeds of Merit by Sujin is also worth a look at it.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2040
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:27 am

Hi robertk
robertk wrote:Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
So their study is conditioning their view? What is the motivation or movement towards study? Is it different to the movement towards meditation? Is it being driven by different forces? Is there a higher intention?

robertk wrote:I wonder have you ever met any other people that have similar ideas to a teacher? Or would you say this is a unique phenomena?


I have. It is normal. A pheonomana of world. somthing to investigate.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 1754
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:14 pm

Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk
robertk wrote:Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
So their study is conditioning their view? What is the motivation or movement towards study? Is it different to the movement towards meditation? Is it being driven by different forces? Is there a higher intention?



Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.
Take the case of DF. She was psoting here for a while,
Then one day she sent me a pm asking me something and I think if she could meet Sujin. So at a convenient time, on her way home from her yearly long stays at a Myanmar meditation center she stopped over in Thailand and met Sujin for a short discussion. I was in Vietnam or Cambodia or somewhere so didnt even meet her.

Why, out of all the people on Dhammawheel was she interested in what I happened to write: even now almost 2 years later my total posts ad up to 700.
whereas some members have 15,000: you would think she would have been more influenced by one of them..

Or Beautiful Mind, he went to meet Sujin in Hua Hin last month, and he writes - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15755&p=227593#p227593- how he 'hogged the mike"- for the 2 hours he was there . I see he is now writing on DSG and is unconvinced by anything out of Abhidhamma and I think favours a slighly Mahayana approach (sorry if I got your position wrong BM)- which is of course fine.


Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and dont like, think or dont think.
Some people love Abhidhamma and thrive on it. Some love it but it makes them dry and distant. Some misinterpret it. Some get attached to it. Some reject it.
But why these differences.
It is all by conditions, there is no self who is like a manager deciding this and that. It is merely wisdom arising, or ignorance, or desire, or wrong view: and these conditioned mental factors, which always arises in assocation with cetana are performing the various functions.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2040
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:09 pm

Hi robertk

robertk wrote:

Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.

It is no more or no less impersonal than any other process. On a conventional leval we would say that they are being guided by the teacher. The teacher is conditioning the thought process of the student. You have put your faith in the teacher. Your insight and understanding has come from the teacher.

But is the motivation that drives, is it any different to what drives someone to formal meditation? Are you not coming from the same place?

robertk wrote:Take the case of DF. She was psoting here for a while,
Then one day she sent me a pm asking me something and I think if she could meet Sujin. So at a convenient time, on her way home from her yearly long stays at a Myanmar meditation center she stopped over in Thailand and met Sujin for a short discussion. I was in Vietnam or Cambodia or somewhere so didnt even meet her.

Why, out of all the people on Dhammawheel was she interested in what I happened to write: even now almost 2 years later my total posts ad up to 700.
whereas some members have 15,000: you would think she would have been more influenced by one of them..

Or Beautiful Mind, he went to meet Sujin in Hua Hin last month, and he writes - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p227593- how he 'hogged the mike"- for the 2 hours he was there . I see he is now writing on DSG and is unconvinced by anything out of Abhidhamma and I think favours a slighly Mahayana approach (sorry if I got your position wrong BM)- which is of course fine.

Why do you think it is? Does DF have barami? Was she ripe? Do you think that followers of other teachers do not feel the same?

robertk wrote:
Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and dont like with regard to views.
Some people love Abhidhamma and thrive on it. Some love it but it makes them dry and distant. Some misinterpret it. Some get attached to it. Some reject it.
like anything else
robertk wrote:But why these differences.
It is all by conditions, there is no self who is like a manager deciding this and that. It is merely wisdom arising, or ignorance, or desire, or wrong view: and these conditioned mental factors, which always arises in assocation with cetana are performing the various functions.
Is that your realization?

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:38 pm

dhamma follower wrote: I just don't agree that sati-sampajana is the same thing than actively paying attention to a situation. In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.

Where, in the following, do you see the requirement, the precondition, for "right understanding of reality"? Where do you see the suggestion "we can not actively make it arise"?
"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

[1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'
Last edited by kirk5a on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3461
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:38 pm

Hello DF,

dhamma follower wrote:i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.


Can you at this moment, please do it, think "All things are anatta"? Of course you can do it right now. This is right view.
Or
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "Atta really exists. I wonder what it is..."? Of course you can do it right now. This is wrong view.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 1754
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:14 pm

Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk

robertk wrote:

Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.

It is no more or no less impersonal than any other process. On a conventional leval we would say that they are being guided by the teacher. The teacher is conditioning the thought process of the student. You have put your faith in the teacher. Your insight and understanding has come from the teacher.

But is the motivation that drives, is it any different to what drives someone to formal meditation? Are you not coming from the same place?

?

Dear Mr. man

I think motivation is conditioned by various factors, such as right view and wrong view?
You have mentioned how the views put forward on this thread are ""rather an odd collective belief to hold" and how there "strong groupthink among sujin follwers here" so presumably you believe the points I made are conditioned primarily by wrong view, or if you prefer conventional terms, illogical or ridiculous (or simply odd).
For me I was happily putting them forward but if you can show that they are in opposition to the Theravada Tipitika and ancient Commentaries that would be great, please do.

For your point about views being "no more personal or impersonal than anything else", I believe it is Theravada axiom that all things are anatta, impersonal, not self...
It is like the Visuddhimagga says (xvii312)


"The absence of interestedness on the part of ignorance, such as 'Formations [sankhara] must be made to occur by me, or on the part of formations, such as 'vinnana must be made to ocur by us'. One who sees this rightly abandons self view by understanding the absence of a maker."

Maybe we like to think that we have freewill and that we can choose to do good. Or why not choose to be always fearless, never nervous. Even we are in a plane crash why not just choose to be perfectly unworried?

It seems to me in fact that fearlessness gradually comes about from seeing into anatta (at whatever level) and uncontrollabilty as one is wearing away the idea of a self who suffers, "who" needs protection; it erases, so it seems, the idea of a body that is under anyones control.

But this is just my idea, please feel free to disagree.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 1754
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:28 pm

robertk wrote:

Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and dont like with regard to views.
Some people love Abhidhamma and thrive on it. Some love it but it makes them dry and distant. Some misinterpret it. Some get attached to it. Some reject it.

like anything else

yes exactly, that was my point. Next year DF may decide to be a Tibetan Nun, or I might join the moonies.
But it is not someone inside the machine making such decisions, it is a purely conditioned process. That is what I believe (for now).

I can understand it seems a odd belief, that every moment has conditions, so please help out aand show why it is in opposition to the Theravada (or if you want to give me a nudge towards the moonies , why they have it right)

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3461
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:44 pm

robertk wrote:Myriad conditions work together to decide what we like and dont like with regard to views.


"Myriad..." Is this conceptual or ultimate truth?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 21855
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:49 pm

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:[
Hi Tilt,
It seems like rather an odd colective belief to hold. There appears to be very strong groupthink amongst the Sujin followers here.

Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
Well, the linked Q&A with Sujin and the linked interview you did with Nina Van G interestingly points to the source of the flavor of what we are seeing here.

I wonder have you ever met any other people that have similar ideas to a teacher? Or would you say this is a unique phenomena ?
Group-think certainly can be a characteristic of students following particular teacher, but not always.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 21855
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:01 pm

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi robertk
robertk wrote:Possibly some of the students of Sujin study Abhidhamma, there might be a flavor of that in their thinking?
So their study is conditioning their view? What is the motivation or movement towards study? Is it different to the movement towards meditation? Is it being driven by different forces? Is there a higher intention?



Of course their study conditions their views, . I am sure if I read you right, do you have doubts that it does?
It is a purely impersonal process.
So, one does not choose to study Sujin's writings or to listen to her talks. It just happens?

Take the case of DF. . . .
The problem is that stories like can be found in any religion and their subdivisions, and such stories certainly do not negate the constantly ongoing choices that are being made by individuals who, for whatever set of reasons, adhere to a particular point of view.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 18 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine