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Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:21 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:. . .
What is really interesting here, for all the dismissal of meditation practice as having no more significance to Dhamma practice than what sandwich shop one goes to, we see a methodology, while talked about with impersonal terminology, of highly active choosing as to how to act. The "listening" involves, by choice, a considerable amount of intellectual active study and active learning of Abhidhamma categories and concepts which are then, by choice, pressed service as a way of cultivating the conditions for the arising of wisdom.

There is no basis here criticizing meditation practice as has been done in this thread or in the linked interview and linked talk by the teacher of this method.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:28 pm
by robertk
Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "
An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]."
Unknowingly, many/most efforts we make in the spiritual realm are tied in with this fetter.

It is good to know this, because this knowing will condition dhamma-vicaya(investigation of Dhamma/dhammas) with sammaviriya (right energy) to learn what the right way is.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:37 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "
An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]."
Unknowingly, many/most efforts we make in the spiritual realm are tied in with this fetter.

It is good to know this, because this knowing will condition dhamma-vicaya(investigation of Dhamma/dhammas) with sammaviriya (right energy) to learn what the right way is.
So you say, but quite honestly, I do not see anything in what you have offered here that shows that your mode of practice is any less susceptible to the exact same problem (or any number of other problems). The reality is that we all start from where we are, with what we have, and there are things that get worked through, which includes "a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances."

The wholesale dismissal of meditation by Sujin and her followers, whether it be vipassana, jhana, or -- as in the linked talk -- metta meditation comes across as both ignorant and unwholesome.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:49 pm
by robertk
I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:52 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And your point is?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:54 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And this is something that could easily be said by a vipassana meditation teacher.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:57 pm
by robertk
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And your point is?
Sorry, a little earlier in this thread you and sylvester had a conversation:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:

I get the sense from these suttas that some forms of clinging are tolerable in the path and practice, or at the very least, are not obstructive to Non-Return. The residue just needs to be dealt with on the final leg to awakening.
That makes sense, indeed.
Sujin is saying that even right now if lobha is not understood, especially in regard to the path, then that could hinder progress.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:59 pm
by mikenz66
robertk wrote:I was reading something Sujin Boriharnwanaket says that makes a lot of sense to me.
She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

"
If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."
And, of course, no teacher I know of would disagree with that.

But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:05 pm
by daverupa
AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:06 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:
Sujin is saying that even right now if lobha is not understood, especially in regard to the path, then that could hinder progress.
Sure, but the reality is, of course, that greed, hatred, and delusion only come fully to an end with full awakening. In the meantime this is stuff which we have to deal with, even as an ariya shy of full awakening, which is why there is sila and bhāvanā as well as study.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:09 pm
by tiltbillings
daverupa wrote:
AN 4.159 wrote:"And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
Brilliant. That deserves a lengthy discussion. This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:29 pm
by Mr Man
mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.
Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:46 pm
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.
Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.
Could you, would you, be kind enough to elaborate on this rather cryptic response?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:02 pm
by Mr Man
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
But what I have never understood is why the KS followers appear think that they are the only ones who have thought deeply about these issues, that they are the only ones whose choice of approach is less susceptible to these problems, and that the rest of the Theravada community has lost it's way.
Hi mikenz66, the ideas originate from ks, possibly it is because of where ks devoloped these ideas. The "where" being Thailand.
Could you, would you, be kind enough to elaborate on this rather cryptic response?
It didn't mean to cryptic honest. Possibly because Khun Sujin's ideas where shaped by that environment (Thailand).

There is some paradox here which, considering the subject, is not surprising. The idea that meditation is not for lay people and strong emphasis on developing parami is fairly standard fair but Khun Sujin has kind of turned this on its head with a deep commitment to get to the essence of the teaching in contrast to the possibly superficial religion, which is all around. There is an acceptance of the religion of her culture but also a rejection.

Hopefully my explanation has not caused more confusion tilt.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:11 pm
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:
It didn't mean to cryptic honest. Possibly because Khun Sujin's ideas where shaped by that environment (Thailand).

There is some paradox here which, considering the subject, is not surprising. The idea that meditation is not for lay people and strong emphasis on developing parami is fairly standard fair but Khun Sujin has kind of turned this on its head with a deep commitment to get to the essence of the teaching in contrast to the possibly superficial religion, which is all around. There is an acceptance of the religion of her culture but also a rejection.

Hopefully my explanation has not caused more confusion tilt.
That was helpful. Thanks.