The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greeting Tilt,

I'd rather not go into specific detail as I don't wish to be drawn into a sparring match between opposing factions.

I'll leave it for each individual to take an honest and sincere look at their own thought processes and see if/when the inappropriately derived view that "I have no self" arises.
And so it remains cryptic and not very helpful'
Not very helpful in fuelling conflict and debate, no... it wasn't intended to be.

It was me sharing my perspective - and you and others are welcome to take it or leave it as you see fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Haha! Three mentions of "I" in the same sentence (not to mention the s-word)- tsk tsk!
I do not know what to say; I am feeling quite abashed. I shall need to limit my self as to my "I" usage. Self restraint is always good, I feel. I shall strive to do better, I am sure of it.

Yes, you are very naughty...

As for self views and such, I am not sure I read this discussion as people "trying to prove (either to themselves or others) the validity of this inappropriately derived view that "I have no self"". Could this be the core reason Robert and other followers of Khun Sujin reject formal practice because of the view that it is artificial and proceeds from the self-view and therefore reinforces it?

Isn't it ironic that for more or less the same reasons the Soto Zen school emphasized to just sit, sit and sit more?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Could this be the core reason Robert and other followers of Khun Sujin reject formal practice because of the view that it is artificial and proceeds from the self-view and therefore reinforces it?
Their view, as I understand it, is that if a practice proceeds from the basis of self-view or wrong view, then it is wrong practice.... thus why Robert keeps saying there is inherently no difference between a range of activities (e.g. selecting a sandwich, sitting on your bum) - these are just differing configurations of rupa.... the underlying citta behind that outward form of rupa is the key thing. The Buddha too in the suttas says that Right View is the forerunner.

Accordingly, to use your example of Soto... if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View... and is sitting the cause of wisdom (right view)? That is what this topic is trying to address...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Could this be the core reason Robert and other followers of Khun Sujin reject formal practice because of the view that it is artificial and proceeds from the self-view and therefore reinforces it?
Their view, as I understand it, is that if a practice proceeds from the basis of self-view or wrong view, then it is wrong practice.... thus why Robert keeps saying there is inherently no difference between a range of activities (e.g. selecting a sandwich, sitting on your bum) - these are just differing configurations of rupa.... the underlying citta behind that outward form of rupa is the key thing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks for the great summary, Retro.

So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a distinct possibility?

I mean is it controversial to say that some activities are more likely to lead to some results and others are more likely to lead to others? So when I sit quietly I am more likely to settle and notice things about me that I had not noticed earlier while immersed in the hurly-burly. And when I practice concentration based upon the right view, I am much more likely to notice some important things once the mind settles and becomes sufficiently focused.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?
It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way. If that's a cause of wisdom, then that's a cause of wisdom... but if the suttas are anything to go by, the Buddha always endeavoured to establish people in Right View before sending them off to wrestle with their minds. I don't recall a single instance of him encouraging people to do it the other way around.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?
It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way. If that's a cause of wisdom, then that's a cause of wisdom... but if the suttas are anything to go by, the Buddha always endeavoured to establish people in Right View before sending them off to wrestle with their minds. I don't recall a single instance of him encouraging people to do it the other way around.

Metta,
Retro. :)
OK, so then what's the beef with meditation? Is the debate about exactly what the prerequisites are before it is "safe" to "wrestle with our minds"? Or some other thing?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:OK, so then what's the beef with meditation? Is the debate about exactly what the prerequisites are before it is "safe" to "wrestle with our minds"? Or some other thing?
It's a discussion about the causes of wisdom. If other people have hi-jacked the topic along the way for alternative means, you'll have to ask them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote: Their view, as I understand it, is that if a practice proceeds from the basis of self-view or wrong view, then it is wrong practice.... thus why Robert keeps saying there is inherently no difference between a range of activities (e.g. selecting a sandwich, sitting on your bum) - these are just differing configurations of rupa.... the underlying citta behind that outward form of rupa is the key thing. The Buddha too in the suttas says that Right View is the forerunner.
The reality is, however, that Right View is always a work in progress (until one becomes ariya). An intellectual Right View understanding of the Dhamma means little until it is put into practice, which is the point of sila, bhavana, and the rest of the Eightfold Path. One cannot think wrong view away, but one can use the tools the Buddha gave us for cultivating the causes and conditions for the arising of Right View grounded in insight.
Accordingly, to use your example of Soto... if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View... and is sitting the cause of wisdom (right view)? That is what this topic is trying to address...
The sitting ideally helps gives rise to the conditions that allows awareness to "see" the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the "all."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?
It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way.
But they do, and have done so in this thread when stating that this or that practice, just because it is this or that practice, is grounded in lobha and therefore has no real value. It is not a very understanding of the practices they are criticizing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:OK, so then what's the beef with meditation? Is the debate about exactly what the prerequisites are before it is "safe" to "wrestle with our minds"? Or some other thing?
It's a discussion about the causes of wisdom. If other people have hi-jacked the topic along the way for alternative means, you'll have to ask them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
This thread has not be hi-jacked. The OP has been questioned, which is appropriate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?
It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way. If that's a cause of wisdom, then that's a cause of wisdom... but if the suttas are anything to go by, the Buddha always endeavoured to establish people in Right View before sending them off to wrestle with their minds. I don't recall a single instance of him encouraging people to do it the other way around.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I think that's a sensible way to try to go about it. The drawback is that until one has done some mental cultivation, one is unlikely to understand much of the Dhamma, since the mind and it's workings are shrouded in ignorance and the finger is forever pointed outwards. So I don't think it's as simple as first Right View, then Concentration. The two are likely to develop in tandem, I think.

Not sure about your second post, Retro. I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now and tilt has tried to draw him out and expose a bit more of the position of Khun Sujin's school which is still puzzling to me, at least.

I know on the one hand people in the West tend to equate Buddhism with meditation and this may be going too far. Meditation does not work for everyone and for most people some groundwork, not just in Dhamma study but in sila is essential.

On the other hand, there seem to be hints of a passive-aggessive complex from "the other camp" that meditators are self-deluding and full of conceit and dhamma study is where it really happens.

This is what this discussion seems to be about for me. Of course there are many causes for wisdom and perhaps it would be good to actually have a list of all the relevant great suttas and teachings quoted here for self-study? Maybe that will return the topic back to what it's meant to be about?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Accordingly, to use your example of Soto... if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View... and is sitting the cause of wisdom (right view)? That is what this topic is trying to address...
The sitting ideally helps gives rise to the conditions that allows awareness to "see" the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the "all."
And a lot of yogis sat and meditated prior to the Buddha too.... yet the sasanas of these wanderers and ascetics were bereft of nobility (i.e. bereft of liberating wisdom)

I think we all know what the difference was between their teachings and the Buddha's.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now
I think the concern was more about "focusing on the here and now" in the absence of Right View.... in other words, "focusing on the here and now" is no substitute for Right View. "Focusing on the here and now" is not the forerunner.
Dan74 wrote:On the other hand, there seem to be hints of a passive-aggessive complex from "the other camp" that meditators are self-deluding and full of conceit and dhamma study is where it really happens.
Who knows. It just feels like different people trying to tilt the public agenda, each side attempting to publicly correct perceived imbalances in public perceptions of Dhamma practice. I see Dhamma practice as a personal thing so am more interested in the sharing and listening of views, and the taking on board of what is deemed useful by the individual, rather than those views being pitted against each other in public debate. But that's just my preference... I'm not here to impose it on others.
Dan74 wrote:Of course there are many causes for wisdom and perhaps it would be good to actually have a list of all the relevant great suttas and teachings quoted here for self-study? Maybe that will return the topic back to what it's meant to be about?
Yes, if I understand it, that's what this topic is about.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Accordingly, to use your example of Soto... if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View... and is sitting the cause of wisdom (right view)? That is what this topic is trying to address...
The sitting ideally helps gives rise to the conditions that allows awareness to "see" the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the "all."
And a lot of yogis sat and meditated prior to the Buddha too.... yet the sasanas of these wanderers and ascetics were bereft of nobility (i.e. bereft of liberating wisdom)

I think we all know what the difference was between their teachings and the Buddha's.
Of course.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now
I think the concern was more about "focusing on the here and now" in the absence of Right View.... in other words, "focusing on the here and now" is no substitute for Right View. "Focusing on the here and now" is not the forerunner.
Right View, which will not be perfected until one is ariya, helps put a context to the "here and now" practice and the "here and now" practice illuminates Right View.
Dan74 wrote:On the other hand, there seem to be hints of a passive-aggessive complex from "the other camp" that meditators are self-deluding and full of conceit and dhamma study is where it really happens.
Who knows. It just feels like different people trying to tilt the public agenda
That is cute; however, I have no interest in "tilting" any agenda. While the Sujin practice may be efficacious, I have no interest in that sort of dry Abhidhamma style of doing things, but I would not say to another, do not do that for this or that reason. I do, however, take exception to what looks to be, from Sujin and her followers, very negative straw-man characterizations of other forms of Dhamma practice. Calling that into question is not trying to “tilt the public agenda,” which seems to suggest a negative value. It is dialogue and debate, which is the purpose of this forum and such discussuion has its worth.
I see Dhamma practice as a personal thing so am more interested in the sharing and listening of views, and the taking on board of what is deemed useful by the individual, rather than those views being pitted against each other in public debate. But that's just my preference... I'm not here to impose it on others.
Practice is, indeed, a personal thing, which is why characterizing in such a negative way, as the Sujin people are doing here other forms of Dhamma practice, should be looked at as it happens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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