The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:In line with Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on not-self as a strategy, I would say that the above quotes are examples of prematurely or unduly dropping the self-view.
Yes, which is not without its problems.
What do you mean is not without problems - Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on not-self as a strategy, or prematurely / unduly dropping the self-view?
Assuming a no-self view without real insight. The Madhyamikan Mahayanists have their verision of this they call "emptiness sickness."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
binocular
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by binocular »

tiltbillings wrote:Any spiritual practice can be twisted so.
Sure. Nevertheless, even some such twisters occasionally do make a good point, and that isn't to be dimissed just because they otherwise say so much nonsense.

:meditate:
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Any spiritual practice can be twisted so.
Sure. Nevertheless, even some such twisters occasionally do make a good point, and that isn't to be dimissed just because they otherwise say so much nonsense.

:meditate:
You are confusing me here as to who you are now talking about, but that may be because I really need to go to bed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

TILT: I know full well that vipassana is not a technique, but I also know full that the causes and conditions for vipassana, insight, can be, as the Buddha taught, cultivated, and the differences between your position and that of those who see meditation practice of value has been drawn out by me and others at great length. But again, despite that significant difference between your mode of practice and the mode of practice that involves directly putting the teachings into practice, I would not say that what you are advocating does not work. Again, the problem is your dismissal of other ways of understanding and putting the Dhamma into practice
I think the fact that we agree that vipassana or satipatthana is not a technique is indicative that we are not so far way .
Earlier on this thread I gave a link to Deeds of Merit by Sujin Boriharnwanaket:




QUOTE

"This is another level of kusala besides the levels of , generosity, and siila, morality

Sujin. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements.

W. : What are these four meditation subjects?

Sujin. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death.

Sujin. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the excellent qualities of the Buddha."



She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati.

I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that for those who have the accumulations to understand these that this is the rarest teaching.
Thus for one who is intent on samatha , who lives a secluded life then the term formal practice may fit. But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
What you say here, especially the part I bolded, accords with my understanding of the Satipatthana Sutta.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
TILT: I know full well that vipassana is not a technique, but I also know full that the causes and conditions for vipassana, insight, can be, as the Buddha taught, cultivated, and the differences between your position and that of those who see meditation practice of value has been drawn out by me and others at great length. But again, despite that significant difference between your mode of practice and the mode of practice that involves directly putting the teachings into practice, I would not say that what you are advocating does not work. Again, the problem is your dismissal of other ways of understanding and putting the Dhamma into practice
I think the fact that we agree that vipassana or satipatthana is not a technique is indicative that we are not so far way .
Insight arises from the cultivated causes and conditions which are best rooted in the various awareness/concentration meditation techniques that are grounded in the Buddha's teachings, such as the Satipatthana Sutta. As for satipatthana, as in the Satipatthana Sutta, not being a technique, that is not quite correct. The sutta is a nifty outline of a variety practices that can be actualized by various techniques that have been variously worked out over the ages by Buddhist meditators. The practices help cultivate the causes and conditions giving rise to insight, and these insight may arise during one's meditation or during one's daily life, given that one has cultivated the awareness and focus of mind in the context of the practices outlined in the sutta/suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote: But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
And this simply very poorly understands what the vipassana meditation practice is about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
And this simply very poorly understands what the vipassana meditation practice is about.
Hi Tilt
What is "vipassana meditation practice"?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
And this simply very poorly understands what the vipassana meditation practice is about.
Hi Tilt
What is "vipassana meditation practice"?
Damdifino. In the context of this unfortunate thread, probably the Burmese practice that have gotten the unfortunate applelation of vipassana meditation, but one could include in a more general way the sort of thing Ajahn Chah or Buddhadasa or any number of others taught/teach, and that could include jhana practice as long as insight was a goal. That answer your question?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
What you say here, especially the part I bolded, accords with my understanding of the Satipatthana Sutta.
Being able to face any object at any time is, of course, the goal that we all aspire to. There should be no disagreement on that. What conditions are required to be able to do that is the question. As has been pointed out many times, in this thread, and elsewhere, it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...

:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...
:strawman: ?

No one made this claim, that I saw. One can't decide to be ready, but one decides to train for readiness.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...
:strawman: ?

No one made this claim, that I saw. One can't decide to be ready, but one decides to train for readiness.
"Deciding to be ready" is, indeed, the strawman that robertk, dhamma follower and pt1 would lay at the feet of those who opted to meditate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...
:strawman: ?

No one made this claim, that I saw. One can't decide to be ready, but one decides to train for readiness.
That one cannot simply decide to be mindful, or decide to be ready to face any object seems to me to be a key point of the arguments presented in this thread.

At Tilt says, my post was a reference to the frequent statements on this thread and elsewhere, by a variety of teachers, that one cannot just will mindfulness and so on. That would be to have wrong view, and go against the teachings on anatta. Phenomena such as mindfulness arise due to causes and conditions.

[Statement of this by Ajahn Brahm: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p243244]

Exactly how those conditions arise is the key question and the area of disagreement, it seems.

:anjali:
Mike
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

There is such a thing as "deciding" and it is a condition. The notion that absolutely no dhammas can be conditioned as wished is silly. Every time one wishes to say something here on Dhammawheel, one has to move the fingers in a specific manner on the keyboard, in order to express what one wishes to say.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
For the development of vipassana, concentration has to be developed. So how, in your view, is concentration developed?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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