The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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phil
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by phil »

Mkoll wrote:
phil wrote:I had a reason to groan re this this evening. Listening to a popular teacher's talk on MN 10, when he got to the section on internal and external awareness of feelings and mind, he noted that there were many explanations about the meaning of this but didn't mention them at all and instead just jumped into a very appealing, easily applicable explanation in terms of inferring the feelings and mind states of others, all of it very emotionally sensible in terms of dealing with people, then when he got to the internal and external and he chose venerable Analayo's explanation, and during all this at no point did he make a reference to what else the ancient commentaries say. And this is always the case as everyone turns to venerable Analayo's book as though it were an authoritative commentary rather then a book written by a modern monk whose understanding has developed in line with a soecific modern tradition of meditation. (Forgive me if I am wrong about that but I recall from reading the book that there were many references to the Mahasi Sayadaw style. Which is fair enough for a book eritten for devotees of that, but not for a book which is now taken to be an authoritative commentary.) Does it matter that modern listeners are being led to rely on neo-commentaries while ignoring the classical commentaries? Again we are responsible for our own understanding so moaning about what's happening to other people's understanding is silly. But I too am silly so I have to do it on occasion.


Phil
TBH, I don't know the difference between Ven. Analayo's interpretation and the ancient commentarial interpretation of internal/external awareness of feelings/mind.

Can you briefly explain the difference?
To be perfectly honest I can't without going to get the commentary which is not here now or his book which is stored away somewhere. It's quite possible that his explanation is in line with the predominant exolanation of the commentary. But I remember that there are different explanations which the speaker I was listening to (joseoh Goldstein) referred to in passing without explaining in the least before saying he was going to go with Ven Analayo's. Again in this one case fair enough and maybe it's the best explanation. But the thing that kind of amazes me is that so far in approximately 13 hours of talks on the sutta that I have listened to he hasn't made a single reference to the classical commentary which would require a subtler, less easily applicable explanation of satipatthana. Now and somebody pointed out earlier in this thread if I expect to find that I am listening in the wrong place since he is speaking to retreatsnts who are practicing a certain kind of insight meditation. But these talks have been published as a book and seeing the respect he receives now they will stand along Ven Anakayo's as important kind of authoratative interpretations of the Satipatthana sutta and the subtleties will be lost. Does it matter? Obviously since I have listen to 13 hours of these talks I am enjoying them and benefiting from them probably at the cost of accurate understanding of how subtle Satipatthana is but the practices pointed at are very beneficial for living life in the wholesome way and that is good enough for me now. But I always keep in mind when listening that it is a rather facile, overly pragmatic presentation. It is always easy to look at the Buddha's teachings and say they are pragmatic and there certainly is a huge pragmatic element but it seems to me that it has been stripped down these days to sheer pragmatism seeking effective methods for change now at the expense of some very subtle depths that might interfere with a pragmatic step by step method of applying it effectively to get results in the precious I -took -time -off- for -this -and -I- -had -better -get -some -results retreat. Anyways enough said, just my opinion. As usual sorry for any typos, on the run.

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

Analayo's recent work on the Dawn of the Abhidhamma might be pertinent here.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:Analayo's recent work on the Dawn of the Abhidhamma might be pertinent here.
Looks like a very good piece of work - and if one does not have the time, nor inclination to read the entire thing, the conclusion stands alone as a worthwhile read.

The conclusion concludes as follows...
...born out of what originally was a commentary on the Dharma,
Abhidharma has gone “further”, abhi-, than the Dharma, something that
is evident in the employment of new terminology and ideas. Arisen
from the wish to clarify the teachings of the recently deceased Buddha,
what is characteristic of the Abhidharma is a conception of wisdom that
aims at a complete coverage by surveying all the constituents of a single
moment in their interrelation, instead of merely monitoring a process of
disenchantment, dispassion, and seeing as it really is.
... which reads like something of a "missing the forest for the trees" assessment with regards to the canonical Abhidhamma enterprise, nevermind that of the subsequent commentaries that leveraged it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Mkoll
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mkoll »

retrofuturist wrote:the conclusion stands alone as a worthwhile read.
I agree. It's just a few pages.

:reading:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

phil wrote:
Mkoll wrote:. . .
TBH, I don't know the difference between Ven. Analayo's interpretation and the ancient commentarial interpretation of internal/external awareness of feelings/mind.

Can you briefly explain the difference?
To be perfectly honest I can't without going to get the commentary which is not here now or his book which is stored away somewhere.
As I pointed above, this neatly sums up Ven Analayo's discussion on pages 94-102:
      • The first way of interpreting follows the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, which interprets 'internally/externally' to encompass phenomenon arising in oneself and others. So, when one contemplates body/feelings/mind/dhammas, one contemplates them in oneself and in others. We of course cannot read the minds of others. But reading the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, Ven. Analayo suggests that we can direct mindfulness towards the outer manifestations of others (facial expressions, posture, movements, etc) so as to practice satipatthana 'externally'.

        The second way of interpretating is suggested by some contemporary teachers who interpret 'internally/externally' to refer to what is inside of the body and what is on the outside of the body--i.e. the surface of the skin. I won't reproduce Ven. Analayo's arguments in detail here. But he more or less argues that while such interpretations are not entirely unfounded and have their practical benefits, they have their limits (e.g. it becomes hard to maintain such a distinction when one begins to contemplate the dhammas). http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 012#p14012
And as I said Ven Analayo in the second to last paragraph (in his 8 page discussion of the subject) of the subject of internal/external states:

      • In summary, although alternative ways of understanding internal satipatthana have their practical value, to understand "internal" as referring to oneself and "external" as referring to others offers a practicable form of contemplation which can moreover claim support from the discourses, the Abhidhamma, and the commentaries.

phil wrote:It's quite possible that his explanation is in line with the predominant exolanation[sic] of the commentary.
As the immediately above quote shows, it would seem so.
But I remember that there are different explanations which the speaker I was listening to (joseoh Goldstein) referred to in passing without explaining in the least before saying he was going to go with Ven Analayo's.
It certainly would help to link to the the offending talk. In the talk I linked above http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_p ... 6/293.html , 2005-03-24 Satipatthana Sutta - part 14 [of 46] - The Refrain, Goldstein states this:
  • "The first line of the refrain” – these are the words of the Buddha --, “In this way in regards to feelings (and again it repeated “in regards to the mind”) one abide contemplating feelings, contemplating the mind, internally; one contemplates them externally; one contemplates them both internally and externally.” That is the first line of the refrain. There are many interpretations about what this actually means, what does internal mean, what does external mean. The interpretation that is commonly suggested and one that is applicable to all the four foundations of mindfulness is the one I’d like to discuss tonight. And that is internal refers to one’s own experience. External refers to the experiences of others.
In other words, he gives a discussion of internal/external that is grounded solidly in the suttas and the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, and it is grounded in the direct experiential contexts of practice.

In this talk Satipatthana Sutta - part 3 - Concentration And Contemplation there is a detailed discussion but there is no mention Ven Analayo. And there is no mention of Ven Analayo in the “part 14” talk above in the way you suggested.
But I remember that there are different explanations which the speaker I was listening to (joseoh Goldstein) referred to in passing without explaining in the least before saying he was going to go with Ven Analayo's.
I do not think you remembered this very well at all.
Again in this one case fair enough and maybe it's the best explanation.
Goldstein was classically trained, and he also is giving an a discussion that is informed by his personal experience as a meditator and with what he has learned from some 40 years of teaching and working with traditional teachers. You want a detailed discussion of the modern variation of internal/external, that need can be met by Ven Analayo’s book.
But the thing that kind of amazes me is that so far in approximately 13 hours of talks on the sutta that I have listened to he hasn't made a single reference to the classical commentary which would require a subtler, less easily applicable explanation of satipatthana.
It is well over 46 hours of talks, and to say that he has not made a single reference commentarial reference is interesting, given that Joseph was classically trained, takes the commentaries seriously, but is not slavish to them. With the question of internal/external in the Satipatthana Sutta’s refrain, his discussion is straight out of the commentary, and this nothing to do with Ven Analayo. It is straight out of the suttas and the commentary and looked at in terms of actual practice. I have heard Joseph say much the same in the late 70’s early 80’s at the three 3 month retreats I attended with him. Goldstein, on the basis of his own experience is able to bring the Satipatthana Sutta to life. It is not dry regurgitive exposition; rather, it is Dhamma that is vital and experienced, and I would daresay there is far more depth in his talks than you seem to be grasping.
facile
The only thing facile here is this msg of yours to which I am responding.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

From Nina Van Gorkoms new book, "What I Heard"

Recorded in Nalanda. 1.

Sujin Boriharnwanaket: It takes time to understand realities appearing right now, and this is not merely thinking. No matter how much one thinks of the characteristic of seeing, so long as seeing right now is not understood as a mental reality, it is impossible to really understand the arising and falling away of seeing.

We cannot know what will be the next moment, be it thinking, seeing or hearing; this cannot be predicted. Who conditions sound or hearing, hardness or the experience of hardness? Each moment is conditioned. If one realizes this understanding can be developed of one characteristic at a time; understanding is not developed by a self, but it develops because of conditions. No one can tell at which moment there will be awareness. There should be understanding of a moment of awareness as different from a moment without awareness. This is the beginning of the development of awareness. Otherwise we keep on talking about awareness without there being understanding of the characteristic of awareness.

Awareness is very natural, there is no self who is aware. There may be intention with an idea of self to be aware. One may try very hard to cause its arising but that is not the way; it is motivated by attachment, unknowingly. Whenever awareness arises, it does so before there is thinking about it. It is like hearing which arises before there is thinking about it. Hearing-consciousness can arise after seeing-consciousness very naturally, just like now. Evenso awareness can arise very naturally.

---------
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:From Nina Van Gorkoms new book, "What I Heard"

Recorded in Nalanda. 1.

Sujin Boriharnwanaket: It takes time to understand realities appearing right now, and this is not merely thinking. No matter how much one thinks of the characteristic of seeing, so long as seeing right now is not understood as a mental reality, it is impossible to really understand the arising and falling away of seeing.

We cannot know what will be the next moment, be it thinking, seeing or hearing; this cannot be predicted. Who conditions sound or hearing, hardness or the experience of hardness? Each moment is conditioned. If one realizes this understanding can be developed of one characteristic at a time; understanding is not developed by a self, but it develops because of conditions. No one can tell at which moment there will be awareness. There should be understanding of a moment of awareness as different from a moment without awareness. This is the beginning of the development of awareness. Otherwise we keep on talking about awareness without there being understanding of the characteristic of awareness.

Awareness is very natural, there is no self who is aware. There may be intention with an idea of self to be aware. One may try very hard to cause its arising but that is not the way; it is motivated by attachment, unknowingly. Whenever awareness arises, it does so before there is thinking about it. It is like hearing which arises before there is thinking about it. Hearing-consciousness can arise after seeing-consciousness very naturally, just like now. Evenso awareness can arise very naturally.

---------
So, in other words, no need to do anything.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Dear tilt
Is sati a conditioned reality, is panna? is hearing a conditioned reality, is seeing a conditioned reality?

Do you have to do something to see, or to hear.. Or do they simply arise by conditions.

Sati is no different than any other reality. It arises because it must if the conditions are present, impossible to stop it arising.
So what are the conditions for satisampajana to arise? Are the conditions a meditation technique? If so did the Buddha give explicit details in the texts of this technique..
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:Dear tilt
Is sati a conditioned reality, is panna? is hearing a conditioned reality, is seeing a conditioned reality?

Do you have to do something to see, or to hear.. Or do they simply arise by conditions.

Sati is no different than any other reality. It arises because it must if the conditions are present, impossible to stop it arising.
So what are the conditions for satisampajana to arise? Are the conditions a meditation technique? If so did the Buddha give explicit details in the texts of this technique..
But then there is not a thing to be done for their arising, it would seem.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote:From an old post by Venerable Dhammanando:

Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)

And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,
For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.
But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,
There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.
While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, my translation)
As posted recently here...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
robertk wrote:From an old post by Venerable Dhammanando:

Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)

And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,
For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.
But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,
There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.
While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, my translation)
As posted recently here...

Metta,
Retro. :)
And the above explains this? If so, how?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by cooran »

Kuhn Sujin is highly thought of throughout the Buddhist world - and was awarded the Outstanding Woman In Buddhism Award by the United Nations in 2007. I haven't been to Bangkok for over ten years, but her teachings were always attended by highly educated, diligently practising Buddhists from Universities across the globe.

http://www.linkapedia-buddhism.com/topi ... t/58916581" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

cooran wrote:Kuhn Sujin is highly thought of throughout the Buddhist world - and was awarded the Outstanding Woman In Buddhism Award by the United Nations in 2007. I haven't been to Bangkok for over ten years, but her teachings were always attended by highly educated, diligently practising Buddhists from Universities across the globe.

http://www.linkapedia-buddhism.com/topi ... t/58916581" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
That is all very nice, but as we read through this thread, the clear picture we get of her teachings, as portrayed by her followers here and in her own words, is certainly not mainstream Theravada, and it clearly rejects meditation practice because meditation practice is being something driven by lobha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Interesting site cooran!
Tilt,
Sujin does not reject meditation, but she defines meditation ( in the buddhist sense of bhavana) as something that can arise at any time in any position.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:Interesting site cooran!
Tilt,
Sujin does not reject meditation, but she defines meditation ( in the buddhist sense of bhavana) as something that can arise at any time in any position.
More correctly: She redefines meditation, and she does so in such a way as to be critical of what one finds in the suttas concerning the cultivation of meditation and and what ones find coming from meditation teachers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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