The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:Dear tilt
This is one if the posts I wrote earlier in the thread if that is what you mean:


Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.
in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension
.

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

My claim is that the path is a purely mental state, not at all dependent on posture. It is, to coin Retro, 'posture neutral'.

However if one believes that insight depends on being in a certain posture, or if one thinks that some technique is what vipassana is or leads to vipassana, then this belief is, so I claim, an indication of silabataparamasa.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture as I mentioned above.
It is worth reproducing your " silabataparamasa" posting:
    • SamKR wrote:
      robertk wrote:
      tiltbillings wrote:So, Robert, I'll ask you again, what does what you are advocating look like as an actual daily practice?
      Here is a summary of yesterday's practice.
      Wake up, check email, brush teeth. Go to coffee shop, read local newscpaper while indulging in brewed coffee. Go to gym, 30 minutes on stepmill then a 1km swim. Go to office, have first meeting of day. Forget about second schefuled meeting, arrive 15 minutes late for that.
      Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
      Finish work early, go to shopping center. Buy a shirt at La Martina. Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment.
      Have a coffe and tuna bun at Belly sandwich shop, outstanding service and taste. And so it goes...
      Suppose my "practice" yesterday was similar to yours as quoted above...and then:

      sit on a cushion, start observing breath for half an hour, and then observe bodily sensations for another half an hour -- while contemplating the Buddha's teachings about anicca, dukkha, anatta; while observing arising and passing away; while observing reduction of raga-dosa-moha and increase in equanimity.
      Would this last addition of mine be considered a part of daily practice for the sake of wisdom?
      robertk wrote:Dear Sam
      let's think about silabataparamasa. This is one of the things that has to be eliminated for nibbana to arise.

      It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

      And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations.
      The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second.

      Eveyone, even non-buddhist, see/know that things change, that at one moment there is seeing, one moment hearing, that there is a flux of everchanging feelings : but there is an idea of a self who is doing so, there is no real seeing of the actual separation of mind aand matter.
Which is to say that any sort of deliberate attempt at cultivating meditation is a problem, from your standpoint, and, according to Sujin, such attempts at meditation are grounded in lobha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Just to add a bit of flavor to robertk's jaundiced view of meditation practice.
    • robertk wrote:
      Mr Man wrote:Robert but how about trying sitting without any thought of I'm doing this "so understanding can grow" maybe you would enjoy it in it's own right (like swimming). Maybe you would see different things.

      Why do you open a dhamma book? Is it any different?

      Who is judging the quality of the different activities?
      Hi mr man,
      yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

      For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now.*
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Dear Tilt
It might be better if we start a new spinoff thread - you can choose the title- and we can begin with those quotes you found..
this one is getting a bit long..
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Yes, I enjoy this topic being about "the causes for wisdom", not "the same old grievances about Robert's preferences".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Yes, I enjoy this topic being about "the causes for wisdom", not "the same old grievances about Robert's preferences".

Metta,
Retro. :)
Given that robertk has significantly dismissed, in direct contravention of the TOS, major aspects of the Buddha's teachings that have to do with the arising and cultivation of wisdom, it really is, by robertk's own construction about robertk's preferences.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Rereading this msg the following passage quoted by robertk caught my attention. It is worth commenting on a bit if it, given that it addresses much of what has been discussed in this overly long thread.
As for the dhamma theory, it's all laid out in the Tipitaka. Google 'paramattha dhamma' and read and re-read everything you can find about it. Find a teacher and ask them about paramattha dhamma and listen to what they say. Or find somewhat like Khun Sujin who can actually take you on a dialectic tour through your own citta. A few sessions will give you enough to wrestle with for a very long time,

Meditation is a great laboratory and a great calmative. I still practise formal meditation and I still attend the occasional retreat. But it can be a bit like taking psychedelic drugs, ie disappointing when you 'come down.' It can be terrifying when insight actually arises and you realise your ego was behind the intention to meditate in the first place, not kusala citta. On the other hand f practised under the right conditions and perhaps with a very good teacher, nibbana is possible.
  • As for the dhamma theory, it's all laid out in the Tipitaka. Google 'paramattha dhamma' and read and re-read everything you can find about it.
The problem with this statement is that “dhamma theory” in terms of 'paramattha dhammā ' is not part of the whole of the Tipitaka. It is part of the Abhidhamma, which evolved considerably after the death of the Buddha, and continued to evolve for quite some time. See this THE DHAMMA THEORY Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma Prof. Dr. Y. Karunadasa for a carefully done, non-sectarian look at the development of “dhamma theory” and its relation to the Nikayas.

Much of what is presently presented as “dhamma theory” comes from the 11/12th Century CE Abhidhammattha-sangaha, A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, a work that pushes far beyond the original Abhidhamma Pitaka texts in how it presents the “dhamma theory.” The Abhidhammattha-sangaha “dhamma theory/'paramattha dhammā” notions are not something one will find in the suttas or the Vinaya.

An example of the sort thing that comes from the later Abhidhamma "dhamma theory" such as the Abhidhammattha-sangaha can be seen here and here.

And the second paragraph:
  • Meditation is a great laboratory and a great calmative. I still practise formal meditation and I still attend the occasional retreat. But it can be a bit like taking psychedelic drugs, ie disappointing when you 'come down.' It can be terrifying when insight actually arises and you realise your ego was behind the intention to meditate in the first place, not kusala citta. On the other hand f practised under the right conditions and perhaps with a very good teacher, nibbana is possible.
If it is “disappointing when you 'come down’” after a retreat, that is not a problem with meditation. It has to do with the individual's lack of experience and with a grasping after the pleasant aspects of a retreat.

And now for the really interesting bit:
  • It can be terrifying when insight actually arises and you realise your ego was behind the intention to meditate in the first place, not kusala citta.
I wonder what the intention is for someone to go to see Sujin: “Find a teacher and ask them about paramattha dhamma and listen to what they say. Or find somewhat like Khun Sujin who can actually take you on a dialectic tour through your own citta.” Going to Sujin as a Dhamma teacher is motivated by a kusala/wholesome state of mind and meditating is motivated by an unwholesome state of mind? In terms of motivation and all the stuff we have to deal with, why would seeing Sujin be any different in terms of motivation than doing meditation and working with a meditation teacher other than she apparently says it is different?

The author of the bit linked by robertk seems to have a very immature understanding of meditation practice. I wonder why he does something motivated by an unwholesome state of mind.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
  • As for the dhamma theory, it's all laid out in the Tipitaka. Google 'paramattha dhamma' and read and re-read everything you can find about it.
The problem with this statement is that “dhamma theory” in terms of 'paramattha dhammā ' is not part of the whole of the Tipitaka. It is part of the Abhidhamma, which evolved considerably after the death of the Buddha, and continued to evolve for quite some time. See this THE DHAMMA THEORY Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma Prof. Dr. Y. Karunadasa for a carefully done, non-sectarian look at the development of “dhamma theory” and its relation to the Nikayas.

Much of what is presently presented as “dhamma theory” comes from the 11/12th Century CE Abhidhammattha-sangaha, A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, a work that pushes far beyond the original Abhidhamma Pitaka texts in how it presents the “dhamma theory.” The Abhidhammattha-sangaha “dhamma theory/'paramattha dhammā” notions are not something one will find in the suttas or the Vinaya.

An example of the sort thing that comes from the later Abhidhamma "dhamma theory" such as the Abhidhammattha-sangaha can be seen here and here.
I think this is an important point. There is a huge confusion between the Abhidhamma, (which according to the Theravada account was taught by the Buddha in Tusita Heaven) and the later commentary (which the Theravada does not claim to be the word of the Buddha).
All this talk of of billions of cittas arising per second, and so on, is not Abhidhamma, it is later commentary.

The sort of thing that is in the Abhidhamma is what I quoted in this thread:
"Mind-Moments" in the Suttas
01. ROOT CONDITION means roots 1 are related to those things associated with roots, and the forms that originate from it, 2 the condition being by way of root condition.

02. OBJECT CONDITION means the form sense-sphere is related to the eye-consciousness element and the things associated with it, 3 the condition being by way of object condition;

the sound sense-sphere is related to the ear-consciousness element and the things associated with it, the condition being by way of object condition;
...
This kind of thing is recognisable as a detailed analysis of the suttas. Unfortunately, it can be rather sleep-inducing after a few dozen pages...

:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 »

robertk wrote: Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

This conflates two things: cause and occasion.

What is the cause to make insight arise while one is walking, standing, etc? This is the most important issue.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 »

The Sutta Pitaka contains more than 10,000 separate discourses. Only two suttas focus entirely on meditation, the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Four Foundations of Mindfulness) and the Anapanasati Sutta (Mindfulness of Breathing). A search of Access to Insight's translations of the Suttas online for the word 'meditation' yields only 93 results, and aside from the aforementioned two suttas, most of the mentions occur in passing.
link to that post

First of all, there is satipatthana samuytta (SN47.xx) which has MANY satipatthana suttas. There is also anapana-samyutta (SN54.xx) dealing with anapanasati meditation. Not to mention MN118. These are not the only meditation subjects: Contemplating four nutriments SN12.63 can lead anywhere from anagami (repulsiveness of food), to arhatship (contact, mental volition, consciousness). There are many more suttas dealing with other meditation subjects (asubha, nutriment, sense restraint, moderation of eating, etc, etc ).


Second, many of the suttas talk about practice, even if it sounds like philosophical teaching. From my years of sutta study, etc, I believe that right-view is to be practiced.

There are interesting books such as:

1) The notion of ditthi in Theravada Buddhism - by Paul Fuller
2) Early Buddhist metaphysics- by Noa Ronkin
3) A history of Buddhist philosophy - by David Kalupahana

That for hundreds of pages talk about that Right View isn't just a correction of wrong ideas with the right ideas (each religion believes that its teaching is the right ones). Right view is to be practiced (rather than simply intellectually attained), that Buddha ethicized kamma, aggregates, etc, also about anti-essentialism.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

There are some interesting points here (taken from another thread) but does TB underate study. Totally true about honesty.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:
Even in Buddhist circles, you find various kinds of meditation where as they say, "Everything has all been thought out, everything has all been worked out, just follow the instructions. Don't think, don't add anything of your own." It's interesting to note that a lot of these methods also refer to the teaching on not-self as egolessness. Any sense of pride, any sense of independence is a bad thing in those meditation traditions. As one tradition would say, just be totally passive and aware, very equanimous, and just let your old sankharas burn away. And above all, don't think. Or if you are going to think, they say, learn how to think the way we think. And they have huge volumes of philosophy you have to learn, to squeeze your mind into their mold, after which they promise you awakening.

But that doesn't work. Awakening comes from being very observant in seeing things you don't expect to see, developing your own sensitivities, your own discernment. After all, as the Buddha said, the issue is the suffering you're creating. If you don't have the basic honesty and maturity to see that, you're never going to gain awakening no matter how much you know, no matter how much you study, no matter how equanimous you are. You've got to take responsibility.
From: Adult Dhamma by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote:... but does TB underate study?
Good question.

I don't think that he under-rates it per se, he just seems to think that "basic honesty and maturity" is a pre-requisite to getting anything out of this study. And following that, getting anything out of this path.

We know Right View is the forerunner of the path, but does it too have pre-requisites? Is "basic honesty and maturity" a pre-requisite for Right View? Maybe ""basic honesty and maturity" is a factor of having "good attributes", "keen faculties" and "little dust in their eyes"?
SN 6.1 wrote:Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born and growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Actually I think you put it well. Certainly someone can study Abhidhamma, say, and still seem to interpret the world through their own limited vision.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

That's good, not unsurprising, advice from TB. I haven't come across any teacher who would disagree with the student needing to take responsibility for their own development, so nothing much to disagree with there...

Where there may be some confusion is how some teachers get their students to take that responsibility. Often it's more subtle than just telling them to take responsibility and start to figure out things for themselves. It's more about getting them into a situation where it becomes obvious that that is the only option.

:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Further to the point made above re: "basic honesty and maturity"...

"When we read teachings contrary to our preferences and outside the realm of our usual consideration, we tend to reject them automatically. They are strange and intellectually disturbing - hence they must be wrong. This tendency, too, is quite natural; and certainly our native intelligence and worldly experience should alert us to what is outlandish and incoherent. But it is good to remember that a new or an old way of considering and dealing with life is not false just because it surprises us or contradicts our theories. A sincere seeker should compare ideas for the purpose of gaining a closer fix on truth."

- Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano, "Available Truth"

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

robertk wrote:Certainly someone can study Abhidhamma, say, and still seem to interpret the world through their own limited vision.
Isn't that the only way the world can be interpreted?
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