No believing in God is not such a good idea.

[LonesomeYogurt]

My personal opinion is that religion is not such a powerful force in this world. Instead, I believe there are many people who will be jerks regardless of their religious beliefs. There are other people that will be nice regardless of their religious beliefs. But that's just my opinion.

I absolutely agree with you - the real problem is any philosophy which removes the Dhamma of dispassion, impermanence, and non-self from our worldview. Both theism and radical materialism can do this, and the results are always destructive. It's a good thing we have the middle way, isn't it?

[m0rl0ck]

Agricultural societies are always short of arable land and that lends a peculiar and ugly twist to their ideas about god.

Is it possible the underlying problem is not a belief in God, but a shortage of arable land and other resources such as gold, oil, slaves, etc.?? People often dismiss this possibility without offering any evidence.

That would be nice if it were true but there are historical examples like the cathars i mentioned above where the only motive is to prove who is holier and to discipline the unbeleivers (in the case of the cathars by making a bonfire out of them).
I used the qoute above from the bible advisedly, note that god is telling them to even kill the women, oxen and asses, all chattels in a patriarchal theist society. In other words, in the quote above, its not just about taking their stuff its about eradicating them.

And its not just the out group stuff that we need to consider. Racial and sexual discrimination, slavery, poverty every possible social ill and crime gets excused as being gods will. Look at the news its still happening every day. Look at the stand that many fundie christian groups take on social issues. If you are looking for rationality in the motives of bloodthirsty theists, ask the women victimized at the salem witch trials, ask the cathars.

[Coyote]

My only goal in posting on this thread was to point out blatant stereotyping based on opinion and not facts. I'm not claiming theism is inherently good and peaceful. I am only countering those who say it is inherently evil.

My personal opinion is that religion is not such a powerful force in this world. Instead, I believe there are many people who will be jerks regardless of their religious beliefs. There are other people that will be nice regardless of their religious beliefs. But that's just my opinion.

I think it is the underlying emotion and zeal for anything such as God, nation, ideololgy, empire, class ect is the real problem because it is easy to hide behind and self-protect using these as scapegoats.
The sterotyping and ignorance of history and the texts is indeed a problem. I just meant to point out that there is "legitimate" justification of violence based on texts/tradition in all Theistic religions, that Jesus's supposed pacifist ideal is not and never really was the actual standard.

After spending much time writing and thinking about what to say on this thread, I gave up. I will say this though: I think we have to separate the scriptures and texts from Christianity and Judaism and Islam, and then the actions of Christians, (replace for all religions) then Theism. Neither one's violence can really be used to support criticism of the other because they are all separate issues, interlinked, yes, in a highly complex manner that takes more than an internet thread to debate- but also separate. If you confuse them, IMO you commit major errors.

[beeblebrox]

It seems the better measure of a person is not to ask if they believe in God or not, but to carefully observe their actions to see if they are honest and peaceful.

I think that is exactly what the Buddha taught...

Also, it seems like there's this deep habit of trying to treat the organizations like a religion, government, or even prominent figures, like the president or the pope, in a very Atta-like fashion... as if they were some self-functioning entities that are the sources of all the problems, or even all of the good things. It's a very strong illusion...

Many people are gullible with this, even the skeptics.

There is no such thing as a religion or a government which functions in itself. They're entirely made up of people who do their own actions. There also is no such thing as a prominent figure which functions by himself... he's only made up of the conditions which are/were around him.

Trying to think that if we take down a religion, a government or a prominent figure, then the problem will be solved is a kind of annihilationism... this is a dead end according to the Buddha. Why? Because it's only an illusion that we were trying to fight with.

If we wanted to make some change that is significant, then we should be focusing on the actions, along with the conditions which caused them. They're not to be found in things like the Atta-like figures.

It's never about "atta boy"... it's always either a "good job" or a "bad job," or an "average job."

[SarathW]

Hi BB an BW
Your comments make sense to me. In management I learned “Do not criticise the person, criticise his action”
Even a people like Angulimala could be an Arahant if we give them a chance!
As Buddhist we should not see any thing as permanent and unchanging.

[manas]

I don't know if anyone else can relate to this, but I find it easy to be patient with the adherents of Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, because they have mostly left me alone, and have not gone out of their way to (try to) convert me, tell me I'm going to burn in hell forever, etc. But Christians have often preached at me in such an irritating and obtrusive manner over the years. They are not content to just 'live and let live' and practice religious tolerance, in the way that most other religions seem to. They have even managed to pry their way into my child's school, which is a government school which her mother and I assumed would not try to instruct her in Christianity. Even if they won't leave me alone, I do wish they would leave my kids alone! So I have nothing against Christians as individuals, but as a whole they seem to have caused so much dukkha for me over the years, that my patience has been sorely tested.

[polarbuddha101]

I don't know if anyone else can relate to this, but I find it easy to be patient with the adherents of Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, because they have mostly left me alone, and have not gone out of their way to (try to) convert me, tell me I'm going to burn in hell forever, etc. But Christians have often preached at me in such an irritating and obtrusive manner over the years. They are not content to just 'live and let live' and practice religious tolerance, in the way that most other religions seem to. They have even managed to pry their way into my child's school, which is a government school which her mother and I assumed would not try to instruct her in Christianity. Even if they won't leave me alone, I do wish they would leave my kids alone! So I have nothing against Christians as individuals, but as a whole they seem to have caused so much dukkha for me over the years, that my patience has been sorely tested.

They're just trying to save you and your kids from burning in hell for all eternity. So they do it out of compassion, delusional compassion, but compassion nonetheless. The last time I got stopped by an evangelical Christian I talked about my belief in the Buddha's awakening and the dhamma and he got frustrated and left me alone after a couple of minutes. I told him to have a wonderful day as he left.

[manas]

They're just trying to save you and your kids from burning in hell for all eternity. So they do it out of compassion, delusional compassion, but compassion nonetheless. The last time I got stopped by an evangelical Christian I talked about my belief in the Buddha's awakening and the dhamma and he got frustrated and left me alone after a couple of minutes. I told him to have a wonderful day as he left.

I once pointed out that, while to punish someone for a certain period of time would be understandable, punishing them forever, with no hope of restitution, is probably the most cruel & heartless thing I can imagine. And I said, since God must be the highest good, He would not do such a terrible, terrible thing to any of his children, no matter what they had done in the space of this one single lifetime. The Christian replied, "you are placing your own value system (ideas about right and wrong) upon God." This was about 15 years ago, but I can recall thinking, "there is no reasoning with this kind of person, at all..."

[polarbuddha101]

They're just trying to save you and your kids from burning in hell for all eternity. So they do it out of compassion, delusional compassion, but compassion nonetheless. The last time I got stopped by an evangelical Christian I talked about my belief in the Buddha's awakening and the dhamma and he got frustrated and left me alone after a couple of minutes. I told him to have a wonderful day as he left.

I once pointed out that, while to punish someone for a certain period of time would be understandable, punishing them forever, with no hope of restitution, is probably the most cruel & heartless thing I can imagine. And I said, since God must be the highest good, He would not do such a terrible, terrible thing to any of his children, no matter what they had done in the space of this one single lifetime. The Christian replied, "you are placing your own value system (ideas about right and wrong) upon God." This was about 15 years ago, but I can recall thinking, "there is no reasoning with this kind of person, at all..."

You should have replied, "Am I not the heir of Adam, have I not the knowledge of good and evil bestowed upon me as birthright at the beginning of the world when man first fell." That might've stumped them and it sounds really cool.

[manas]

...
You should have replied, "Am I not the heir of Adam, have I not the knowledge of good and evil bestowed upon me as birthright at the beginning of the world when man first fell." That might've stumped them and it sounds really cool.

Thanks polar. I am going to remember that, for the next time a well-dressed, random stranger with a strained yet permanently beatific smile, strikes up a conversation with me on the train, and halfway through our chat begins talking about... Jesus.

[SarathW]

I don't know if anyone else can relate to this, but I find it easy to be patient with the adherents of Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, because they have mostly left me alone, and have not gone out of their way to (try to) convert me, tell me I'm going to burn in hell forever, etc. But Christians have often preached at me in such an irritating and obtrusive manner over the years. They are not content to just 'live and let live' and practice religious tolerance, in the way that most other religions seem to. They have even managed to pry their way into my child's school, which is a government school which her mother and I assumed would not try to instruct her in Christianity. Even if they won't leave me alone, I do wish they would leave my kids alone! So I have nothing against Christians as individuals, but as a whole they seem to have caused so much dukkha for me over the years, that my patience has been sorely tested.

Hi Manas
I can relate to your problem. I have to send my children to non Buddhist private school. Condition of accepting to school was that it was compulsory to study divinity. I want to bring them up as more open minded knowledgeable people. So I took them to temple and try to expose them to Buddhism as much as I could. Unfortunately it did not work the way I expected. Only thing I can think is, that is their bad Kamma. It really did not bother me because I do not think anything is me, myself or mine.

[manas]

Hi Sarath,

there's no need to let go of taking an active role regarding your kids' spiritual education, I mean the doctrine that there isn't any self to be found in the five aggregates, does not absolve us of having to exercise our duty of care to other beings, especially to beings who are vulnerable and depend on us. Luckily, you can teach them: by example, through your good words and actions; and that will mean a lot more, in the long run, than anything they ever learned in 'divinity class' at school.

[SarathW]

Hi Manas
I agree. I extend my Brahamavihara's to everything around me.
Metta

[Buckwheat]

Agricultural societies are always short of arable land and that lends a peculiar and ugly twist to their ideas about god.

Is it possible the underlying problem is not a belief in God, but a shortage of arable land and other resources such as gold, oil, slaves, etc.?? People often dismiss this possibility without offering any evidence.

That would be nice if it were true but there are historical examples like the cathars i mentioned above where the only motive is to prove who is holier and to discipline the unbeleivers (in the case of the cathars by making a bonfire out of them).
I used the qoute above from the bible advisedly, note that god is telling them to even kill the women, oxen and asses, all chattels in a patriarchal theist society. In other words, in the quote above, its not just about taking their stuff its about eradicating them.

And its not just the out group stuff that we need to consider. Racial and sexual discrimination, slavery, poverty every possible social ill and crime gets excused as being gods will. Look at the news its still happening every day. Look at the stand that many fundie christian groups take on social issues. If you are looking for rationality in the motives of bloodthirsty theists, ask the women victimized at the salem witch trials, ask the cathars.

You are right, in those particular cases. But the Bible also inspired Mother Teresa. Please stop stereotyping. A criticism of a specific action by a specific person is fine, but to say that all Christians have a particular trait is called stereotyping.

And once again,

If you are looking for rationality in the motives of bloodthirsty theists,

I never credited any individual with rationality. I typically see human behavior as non-rational (why else would I eat chocolate cake when my belly is already full from a hearty dinner? Why else would I be on an internet chat board instead of meditating?). Irrationality does not negate the need to examine motives.

I think many of us, and I am a prime example, make most of our decisions for non-rational reasons. When we are honest with ourselves, rationality is a rare thing. Habit and conditionaing is much, much more common. This is just my opinion based on observation.