No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Nyana »

m0rl0ck wrote:It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.
Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.
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Polar Bear
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Polar Bear »

The real problem is attachment to views, views cover both religion and all other forms of ideology.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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m0rl0ck
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by m0rl0ck »

Cittasanto wrote: sure but you can use any ideology for that. Create a sense of self and other within the group, and you can produce the same effect, or not depending on the aim behind the ideology and how it is used.
Yes, any ideology could be used. The reason religious ideology is so often employed is that it stands ready for service, is a tried and true method to dehumanize enemies and lends moral superiority. After all, those not of god are evil and killing them is not only not a sin, but a service to god.
When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot “Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics.” The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_a ... His_own.22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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m0rl0ck
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by m0rl0ck »

Ñāṇa wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.
Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.
If you are referring at least partly to the nazis, hitler was just the inheritor of martin luthers anti-semitism which if you read his remarks on the subject were at least partly motivated by religion. Communist regimes killed a lot of people, but my bet for sheer over all historical body count is still on religion and god. Nationalism seems to be gaining ground on the leader tho.
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
perkele
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by perkele »

And what's the point of all this resentment?
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Cittasanto
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age? how many christian or jewish parents would stone a child to death for back chat? it is an ideology that can be interpreted to fit the views of the reader, yet it is still just an ideology. any ideology can be used as you admit and examples are given by another which have been used in just the same way without religion god...
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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m0rl0ck
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by m0rl0ck »

Cittasanto wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age?
I dont know which age you are talking about. People kill each other for god every day on this planet.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
Nyana
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Nyana »

m0rl0ck wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.
If you are referring at least partly to the nazis, hitler was just the inheritor of martin luthers anti-semitism which if you read his remarks on the subject were at least partly motivated by religion.
Yes, well, antisemitism wasn't the cause of WW II. And of the approx. 60 million war casualties, approx. 20 million were soldiers and 40 million were civilians (and of the approx. 11 - 17 million civilians who were killed as a result of Nazi ideological policies, 6 million were Jewish).
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Cittasanto
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Cittasanto »

m0rl0ck wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age?
I dont know which age you are talking about. People kill each other for god every day on this planet.
any
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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appicchato
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by appicchato »

...eternal life
Bummer...
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Kusala
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Kusala »

Is God's mercy to blame for high crime rates?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... rates.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
alan
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by alan »

Belief in a "God" is certainly the dumbest and most useless idea to ever pollute the human realm.
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ground
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by ground »

alan wrote:Belief in a "God" is certainly the dumbest and most useless idea to ever pollute the human realm.
Don't say this. There is a great no. of people living happily due to this belief. Every religion can have - not necessarily does have - the intended effects: contentment, confidence, peace and happiness. Also the current "western" living conditions, negative and positive ones, have been conditioned by christianity. :sage:
nibbuti
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by nibbuti »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:It doesn't matter too much what else you believe in or don't believe in, as long as you believe that you alone will inherit the results of volitional actions of body, speech, and thought done by yourself.
"Master Gotama, is stress self-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

"Then is it other-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa." ...

"'The one who acts is the one who experiences [the result of the act]' amounts to the eternalist statement, 'Existing from the very beginning, stress is self-made.'

'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences' amounts to the annihilationist statement, 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other-made.'

Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:

From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

SN 12.17
:buddha1:
Buckwheat
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Post by Buckwheat »

Dear Bhikkhu,

I think any follower of the Buddha can agree with the following:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The crucial point is accepting full responsibility for one's own actions according to the teaching of Kammassakatta Sammādiṭṭhi. It doesn't matter too much what else you believe in or don't believe in, as long as you believe that you alone will inherit the results of volitional actions of body, speech, and thought done by yourself.
How do we end up then looking at a block of society and history that includes all Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and look at their actions from the exact opposite perspective? Does it really matter what a person believes, or does it matter how they act? There are countless Monotheists who have done great good in this world. They should not be lumped in with the "evil" part of their society.

What then becomes important is not the historical blame we place on religion for good/evil, but the effect it would have on my actions right now. I personally don't get much out of the God concept, though at times I flirt with the idea. But I can see how it may be used as a crutch for many people to calm many negative emotions, allowing them to do good. On the other hand, it can be used to stir up negative emotions. So it is up to the user to make sure they are doing good and not evil (to use the theist vocabulary). In the end, heaven and hell may be seen as forms of taking personal responsibility for our actions.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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