jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby alan... » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.


i didn't say that.

this should say:

Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby alan... » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:16 am

Dmytro wrote:When I read modern authoritative commentaries, for example, on Yoga-Sutra, it is evident for me that the authors don't comprehend the full meaning of the text.

The same applies to the Suttas. The translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign", IMHO, don't know some important practical nuances of the original texts.


you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:10 am

For got to delete
Code: Select all
[quote="alan..."]
. Corrected versrion:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby alan... » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:For got to delete
Code: Select all
[quote="alan..."]
. Corrected versrion:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.


thanks
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby Dmytro » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:25 am

alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.


It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?

The 'sign' translation was introduced at the times of Thomas Rhys-Davids Pali-English dictionary, which was considered then to be a milestone with much to improve later. However it did not undergo improvement for almost a century, and all the imperfections and errors of this dictionary came to be "canonized" in the Western Buddhism. Now hardly anyone will question the inventions like "The Four Noble Thuths".

Well, if you are looking for authorities with qualifications, I can refer you to Stephen Hodge,

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2770#p39219
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Stephen_Hodge

and to the President of the Pali Text Society, Rupert Gethin, who in agreement with Stephen Hodge connects the term 'nimitta' with 'pratibimba' in his book "Foundations of Buddhism".

Also, as for the dictionaries, I would recommend you the new Pali-English dictionary by Margaret Cone. You may definitely enjoy reading the definition of 'nimitta' from there, which is much improved over the Rhys-Davids'es version.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:21 pm

Hi Dmytro, thanks for that link on the "four noble truths" translation issues, and also for pointing out the meaning of nimitta. I think that "sign" can be read as "representation," but probably that's not how some people would read it, so it's important.

:anjali:
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby daverupa » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:58 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Hi Dmytro, thanks for that link on the "four noble truths" translation issues, and also for pointing out the meaning of nimitta. I think that "sign" can be read as "representation," but probably that's not how some people would read it, so it's important.

:anjali:


I take nimitta as "theme" in most cases, but it's a lively word.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby alan... » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:56 pm

Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.


It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?






opinion: definition 3 a: "a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:15 pm

Hi Alan, why this quibble?

As far as I could see, Dmytro did take enough care to say "IMHO" in his post... whether you believed that or not.

:anjali:
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby Doshin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:58 am

alan... wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:you know better than modern authoritative commentators, for example, on the yoga sutra and all translators who render "nimitta" of jhana as "sign"? what qualifications do you have to make such bold, sweeping statements?

that's impressive and surely deserves further explanation as to how you came to be such an authority on these topics.


It's amazing that you consider a bold and sweeping statement my opinion on the meaning of the term 'nimitta' in jhana.
Seems like that anyone who dares to have such opinion should have authority and status?


opinion: definition 3 a: "a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion


(also) from your link:
opinion: definition 2a : "belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge"

I think that is a more fitting definition in this case. The list of definitions is not a "all must apply" list, but a "any could apply" list; you must understand the context to know which definition you find most fitting. Well that's just my opinion ;)

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby Dmytro » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:24 pm

Thank you, Alan, I appreciate your reference.

Speaking about qualifications - I'm a qualified definitionalist :smile:
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby alan... » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:26 am

Dmytro wrote:Thank you, Alan, I appreciate your reference.

Speaking about qualifications - I'm a qualified definitionalist :smile:


yeah hey mostly i was just playing around man. hope you know that. i was just responding to you quoting me the def. of "largely" earlier. have a good one.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby rahul3bds » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 am

Dmytro wrote:Any tradition is a system of transferring knowledge, - a process of education which involves terminology. Samadhi states exist independently of traditions. With the partial lost of terminology, the art of education is partly lost. And then talented enthusiasts attain samadhi, but can't teach it to public at large.


Exactly.

tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.


well, that is laughable.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:39 am

rahul3bds wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Only some enthusiasts attain samadhi, it is not a widely known art, as in ancient India.
I rather doubt that samadhi was any more widely known in "ancient India" than it is now.


well, that is laughable.
Is it?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby rahul3bds » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:42 am

yes it is.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:43 am

rahul3bds wrote:yes it is.
Thank you for sharing your opinion; however, I wonder if there is anything to support it?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby rahul3bds » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:47 am

im from india, i know about its traditions.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:52 am

rahul3bds wrote:im from india, i know about its traditions.
That's nice, but being from India does not automatically make you an expert on how many people are practicing samadhi at any one time, unless you have done a careful survey of the practitioners of the various tradition which you claim to know. And how many people in the Buddha's time did samadhi practice?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby rahul3bds » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:56 am

heard of shamana tradition? Entirely based on samadhi.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Postby rahul3bds » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:01 am

oops i mis spell its shramana
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