Open mindedness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by danieLion »

mirco wrote:...I'm having a hard time everyday working on not to feel unwanted emotions.

Regards :-)
Hi mirco,
Could you please clarify this? Are you saying you're trying to avoid negative emotions when they arise, or abdandon them when they arise, prevent them from arising, etc...?
danieLion
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by danieLion »

Cittasanto,
Thanks for this topic.

I once knew a Christian who liked to say, "He's so open minded he can't hold a conviction." I'm reminded of this because of the accepting/understanding distinction I think you've demonstrated as valid here. The opposite of my Christian acquaintance's statemtent is blind-faith.

I find the Buddha's take on open-mindedness to be very similar to what we call critical thinking (via your Youtube links) along with informal logic fallacies, attribution errors, cognitive biases, Albert Ellis' "irrational beliefs", and Aaron Beck's/David Burn's "cognitive distortions" and "self-defeating beliefs," etc....

In general, one of the most important things in all of this is the ability, will, and right to change one's mind when confronted with novel or contrary evidence to one's current views. It is a necessary condition for Buddhist wisdom/insight and critical thinking.
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

danieLion wrote:
mirco wrote:...I'm having a hard time everyday working on not to feel unwanted emotions.
Hi mirco, Could you please clarify this? Are you saying you're trying to avoid negative emotions when they arise, or abdandon them when they arise, prevent them from arising, etc...?
I'm trying to suppress them or replace them, when arisen or when they are just about to arise. This I mostly do through compulsive overeating combined with watching of TV series.

Regards :-)
alan
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by alan »

It's good to keep an open mind. But Buddha's mind was not just open, it was awaken. How about we take that as our example?
nibbuti
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by nibbuti »

mirco wrote:But what is "viewing with wisdom"?
According to Buddha, viewing without craving is "viewing with wisdom", i.e. discernment of the four noble truths & path factors:
"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path?
The discernment,
the faculty of discernment,
the strength of discernment,
analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening,
the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path." - M 117
Those who don't discern stress,
its cause,
& where it totally stops,
without trace,
who don't know the path,
the way to the stilling of stress:
lowly
in their awareness-release
& discernment-release,
incapable
of making an end,
they're headed
to birth & aging.

But those who discern stress,
its cause,
& where it totally stops,
without trace,
who discern the path,
the way to the stilling of stress:
consummate
in their awareness-release
& discernment-release,
capable
of making an end,
they are not headed
to birth & aging. - Iti 103
:meditate:
danieLion
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by danieLion »

mirco wrote:
danieLion wrote:
mirco wrote:...I'm having a hard time everyday working on not to feel unwanted emotions.
Hi mirco, Could you please clarify this? Are you saying you're trying to avoid negative emotions when they arise, or abdandon them when they arise, prevent them from arising, etc...?
I'm trying to suppress them or replace them, when arisen or when they are just about to arise. This I mostly do through compulsive overeating combined with watching of TV series.

Regards :-)
IMO, merely experiencing or having them is not what makes them defiled (greed-based, hate-based, delusion-based), but how you behave towards them. IMO, wanting them to go away is hating them. IMO, wanting them to get replaced is being greedy for positive emotions. IMO, not knowing this and how your psychological reactions to them cause dukkha is being deluded about them. IMO, all very normal, ordinary, human things to do. Have you tried facing, challenging or otherwise exploring them? IMO, I bet they're tied to some cognitive distortions.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

danieLion wrote:Cittasanto,
Thanks for this topic.

I once knew a Christian who liked to say, "He's so open minded he can't hold a conviction." I'm reminded of this because of the accepting/understanding distinction I think you've demonstrated as valid here. The opposite of my Christian acquaintance's statemtent is blind-faith.

I find the Buddha's take on open-mindedness to be very similar to what we call critical thinking (via your Youtube links) along with informal logic fallacies, attribution errors, cognitive biases, Albert Ellis' "irrational beliefs", and Aaron Beck's/David Burn's "cognitive distortions" and "self-defeating beliefs," etc....

In general, one of the most important things in all of this is the ability, will, and right to change one's mind when confronted with novel or contrary evidence to one's current views. It is a necessary condition for Buddhist wisdom/insight and critical thinking.
Thanks DanieLion,
I actually saw something on The Buddha's method of Critical thinking a day or so ago I'll try to find in again. I don't know if it will be in the same vein as this thread but it certainly wouldn't detract.

But my signature is always worth remembering.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

danieLion wrote:
mirco wrote:I'm trying to suppress them or replace them, when arisen or when they are just about to arise. This I mostly do through compulsive overeating combined with watching of TV series.
IMO, merely experiencing or having them is not what makes them defiled (greed-based, hate-based, delusion-based), but how you behave towards them. IMO, wanting them to go away is hating them. IMO, wanting them to get replaced is being greedy for positive emotions. IMO, not knowing this and how your psychological reactions to them cause dukkha is being deluded about them. IMO, all very normal, ordinary, human things to do.
Well put, but nothing new to me. The theory I know by heart.
danieLion wrote:Have you tried facing, challenging or otherwise exploring them?
Yeah, I am working on personality change since ten years.
danieLion wrote:IMO, I bet they're tied to some cognitive distortions.
They are.

Regards :-)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

Cittasanto wrote: I actually saw something on The Buddha's method of Critical thinking a day or so ago I'll try to find in again.
Buddhist Critical Thinking Skills
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

Why do many people regard critical thinking skills this much important.

Buddhism is about meditation training. Anything in Buddhism is about having best progress in meditation training, since He was a meditation teacher. And in Buddhist meditation training thinking is dropped very early, that is from second jhana on.

Why overestimating critical thinking? Might it be, that there is a slight;) clinging to views, ideas and thinking?
Maybe people like to identify with their thinking which in fact already is clinging?
What about trying what the Tathāgata proposed and if it doesn't work get back to thinking oneself into Nibbana ;-)

Regards :-)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

mirco wrote:Why do many people regard critical thinking skills this much important.

Buddhism is about meditation training. Anything in Buddhism is about having best progress in meditation training, since He was a meditation teacher. And in Buddhist meditation training thinking is dropped very early, that is from second jhana on.

Why overestimating critical thinking? Might it be, that there is a slight;) clinging to views, ideas and thinking?
Maybe people like to identify with their thinking which in fact already is clinging?
What about trying what the Tathāgata proposed and if it doesn't work get back to thinking oneself into Nibbana ;-)

Regards :-)
are you sure this is all the path or is there also Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, right livelihood...
Critical thinking is an important skill in making appropriate decisions in day to day life and in community settings, and even in asking or responding in the appropriate manner.
The famous story of the monks who killed themselves while the Buddha was on self retreat is a fine example of the Buddha having to tell people the difference between apporopriate and inappropriate responces, in this case if they reflected appropriately on the situation and the practice they could of realised death was not the favourable option.
Wise reflection on the four requisites is also an exercise and example of critical thinking, as is Vipassana. FWIW.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mirco
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by mirco »

Cittasanto wrote:are you sure this is all the path or is there also Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, right livelihood... Critical thinking is an important skill in making appropriate decisions in day to day life and in community settings, and even in asking or responding in the appropriate manner. The famous story of the monks who killed themselves while the Buddha was on self retreat is a fine example of the Buddha having to tell people the difference between apporopriate and inappropriate responces, in this case if they reflected appropriately on the situation and the practice they could of realised death was not the favourable option. Wise reflection on the four requisites is also an exercise and example of critical thinking, as is Vipassana. FWIW.
I'm cool with that. See, what one does influences how bad the mental hindrances are present.

So, i.e. Right speech, Right action and Right Livelihood are to build a ground, where less hindrances can grow. This leads to better progress in meditation.

As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

Regards :-)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

mirco wrote: I'm cool with that. See, what one does influences how bad the mental hindrances are present.

So, i.e. Right speech, Right action and Right Livelihood are to build a ground, where less hindrances can grow. This leads to better progress in meditation.

As I see it, all of the proposals for daily life and in community settings are all build around that Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be done easily.

Regards :-)
what do you mean with the underlined part?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Sambojjhanga
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Sambojjhanga »

Cittasanto wrote:.

But my signature is always worth remembering.
Are you referring to: "This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!"?

It's obvious as to what may be "right" or "wrong". Can you give an example of something you might "offer" that would fit in to the "both" or "neither" category?

Thank you for clarifying.

Metta

:anjali:
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
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Cittasanto
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Re: Open mindedness

Post by Cittasanto »

Sambojjhanga wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:.

But my signature is always worth remembering.
Are you referring to: "This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!"?

It's obvious as to what may be "right" or "wrong". Can you give an example of something you might "offer" that would fit in to the "both" or "neither" category?

Thank you for clarifying.

Metta

:anjali:
No, the quote from the sutta on effacement
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
but that is a rendering of the tetralema logic. something that is both could be something that is true yet there are factual errors, although I can not think of what neither could be off hand.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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