johnny wrote:Dan74 wrote:I guess Zen is also not one lineage and includes Chinese Chan, Korean Seon and probably Vietnamese Thien.
Within these traditions there have certainly been teachers who have taught jhanas or have considered jhanas as stages along the path. For me it is hard to envisage complete liberation without deep jhanas of some kind but I could be wrong.
I also feel that a bare bones approach is only possible when sufficient garbage has been moved out of the way to make "seeing own nature" possible. Until then it is seeing "garbage" (of the more spiritual and lofty type) and believing it to be it.
The shouting and hitting was probably more of an exception that got promoted into the Zen brand in Ming dynasty as different schools vied for imperial patronage. The Zen way has always been the chick working hard to break out of the shell (of ignorance) and the mother hen helping just on the other side where the chick is pecking. So whatever was the key obstacle was brought as a question to the master ans the master responded appropriately. These were life and death encounters. And they became mondo and koans (kong-an) and later hua-tou. I don't think this is about iconoclastic, non-conformist, anti-thought, cool, etc. This was the heart question put in the most direct way available within that tradition. And likewise with the response. Our modern psychological way of "my mind" "i am thinking" is far more removed and dualistic than "the mind is the Buddha" or "no mind, no buddha" or "not knowing is the most intimate".
Don't you think so?
absolutely. it's a very broad statement too just call it all "zen"! if you include all of those versions they probably contain a vast number of things not found in theravada. i'm kind of thinking japanese zen and chinese chan alone, i should have been more specific.
Dan74 wrote:Within these traditions there have certainly been teachers who have taught jhanas or have considered jhanas as stages along the path.
What is amusing about these threads, outside of Ven Huifeng's erudite postings, is the utter bewildering array of notions about jhana and meditation in general, not to mention some silly ideas about the Theravada. It makes the jhana discussions here seem very orderly and very consistent and coherent.Dan74 wrote:. . . Have a look at a couple of threads at ZFI - on the sibject of jhanas in Zen, there is a spectrum of views and some interesting info too:
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