Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:42 am

Dan74 wrote:Do these specific sankharas pertain to reification which leads to a delusion of self in particular? Then when the impulse to reify, to divide experience into subject and object is gone, is that not the end of formations/fabrications that Burmese masters talk about?

Sorry I may be missing the point here (hence question marks in the above).

The specific saṅkhāra which is the origin of dukkha is craving (taṇhā): craving sensual pleasure, craving existence, and craving non-existence (kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, and vibhavataṇhā). SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

    And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origin of unsatisfactoriness: craving which leads to further existence, associated with delight and passion, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving sensual pleasure, craving existence, craving non-existence.

But before we can terminate these cravings we have to begin with the first path where we eliminate the fetters of identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicchā), mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa) and associated underlying tendencies. The Paṭisambhidāmagga:

    How is it that the discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

    Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicchā), and mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa).... This discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

    He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.

And so on for the fetters which are terminated on the remaining three paths. These gnoses of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇas) are also called gnoses of the bliss of liberation (vimuttisukha ñāṇa-s). The Paṭisambhidāmagga:

    With the stream-entry path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (1) identity view,
    (2) doubt,
    (3) mistaken adherence to rules and duty,
    (4) the underlying tendency of view,
    (5) the underlying tendency of doubt.

    With the once-returner path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (6) the gross fetter of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (7) the gross fetter of aversion,
    (8) the gross underlying tendency of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (9) the gross underlying tendency of aversion.

    With the non-returner path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (10) the secondary fetter of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (11) the secondary fetter of aversion,
    (12) the secondary underlying tendency of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (13) the secondary underlying tendency of aversion.

    With the arahant path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (14) passion for form [existence],
    (15) passion for formless [existence],
    (16) conceit,
    (17) restlessness,
    (18) ignorance,
    (19) the underlying tendency of conceit,
    (20) the underlying tendency of passion for existence,
    (21) the underlying tendency of ignorance.

Therefore, the cessation of dukkha progresses sequentially with the cessation of very specific fetters pertaining to each of the four noble paths. The state wherein one experiences the extinguishment (nibbāna) of fetters appropriate to each path and fruition, is supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna). And this state must necessarily arise with the concomitant jhāna factors and other mental factors such as attention (manasikāra) and apperception (saññā), as well as gnosis (ñāṇa). Without the presence of these mental factors there can be no gnosis and therefore no path attainment or fruition attainment.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dan74 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:25 am

Thank you for the detailed responses, gentlemen. The last paragraph of Ñāṇa's post seems somewhat restrictive in the way the path can take - aren't there many instances where this specific progression was not followed? In the meantime I still don't see exactly where this diverges from Burmese teachers.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:57 am

Dan74 wrote:. . . In the meantime I still don't see exactly where this diverges from Burmese teachers.
It really does not, but Ñāṇa's approach is, indeed, illustrative a very limited take on the Dhamma. It is, in its attack on what it deems wrong, ugly and corrosive. While debate and articulating fine philosohpical points, structuring a supposedly coherent edifice, gettings one's Dhamma ducks percisely lined up, and insisting that this IS the way, the ONLY way, might be some ways gratifying, reality/Dhamma is a bit more forgiving and giving than that in how it is actualized.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:Ñāṇa's approach is, indeed, illustrative a very limited take on the Dhamma.

The dhamma doesn't mean anything goes. Should one refrain from all criticism? Probably. But at any rate, I haven't said anything that hasn't already been said by people who far more respectable than myself.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Brizzy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:48 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ñāṇa's approach is, indeed, illustrative a very limited take on the Dhamma.

The dhamma doesn't mean anything goes. Should one refrain from all criticism? Probably. But at any rate, I haven't said anything that hasn't already been said by people who far more respectable than myself.


Indeed, and some less respectable like yours truly.

The Buddha says somewhere that the Dhamma will fail when samadhi is not respected, sorry that should read SAMMA samadhi.

:smile:

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:40 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ñāṇa's approach is, indeed, illustrative a very limited take on the Dhamma.

The dhamma doesn't mean anything goes. Should one refrain from all criticism? Probably. But at any rate, I haven't said anything that hasn't already been said by people who far more respectable than myself.
I did not say that it did, nor should you, but for all their respectability or lack thereof, it matters not, for in a very fundamental way you are quite wrong in terms of efficacy of practice.

Given that I am not at home and do not have access to my library and that I have a limited amout time to spend on this both physically and mentally, I have not responded in detail to some of your above "arguments" as I would like. Be that as it may, I find this direct attack on Burmese vipassana unfortunate. I also find this tendency of Gelugpa-ization of the Theravada unfortrunate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:01 pm

Brizzy wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ñāṇa's approach is, indeed, illustrative a very limited take on the Dhamma.

The dhamma doesn't mean anything goes. Should one refrain from all criticism? Probably. But at any rate, I haven't said anything that hasn't already been said by people who far more respectable than myself.


Indeed, and some less respectable like yours truly.

The Buddha says somewhere that the Dhamma will fail when samadhi is not respected, sorry that should read SAMMA samadhi.
Yes, well, I do remember your past "argumentation" quite well. Your neither understood the Burmese vipassana, nor were your willing to listen to what others had to say. I wonder now that you are back from you being banned, if that has changed. Seems not.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2379

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4154#p61378
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Brizzy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:03 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
The dhamma doesn't mean anything goes. Should one refrain from all criticism? Probably. But at any rate, I haven't said anything that hasn't already been said by people who far more respectable than myself.


Indeed, and some less respectable like yours truly.

The Buddha says somewhere that the Dhamma will fail when samadhi is not respected, sorry that should read SAMMA samadhi.
Yes, well, I do remember your past "argumentation" quite well. Your neither understood the Burmese vipassana, nor were your willing to listen to what others had to say. I wonder now that you are back from you being banned, if that has changed. Seems not.


viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2379

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4154#p61378



Hi Tilt,

I appreciate your kind words and your topic links.

:smile:

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I find this direct attack on Burmese vipassana unfortunate.

Okay, then sit and practice bare attention until you experience a momentary blip -- the lights go out, then the lights come back on -- and voila! you're a sotāpanna!

You'll have to excuse me though, for considering this claim less than compelling.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I find this direct attack on Burmese vipassana unfortunate.

Okay, then sit and practice bare attention until you experience a momentary blip -- the lights go out, then the lights come back on -- and voila! you're a sotāpanna!

You'll have to excuse me though, for considering this claim less than compelling.
Thanks. You make my point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:26 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I find this direct attack on Burmese vipassana unfortunate.

Okay, then sit and practice bare attention until you experience a momentary blip -- the lights go out, then the lights come back on -- and voila! you're a sotāpanna!

Lest anyone think that I'm merely painting a caricature I submit the following from the teachers themselves. Sayādaw U Paṇḍita, The Practical Way to Nibbāna based on the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta:

    The duration of realizing the cessation of formations is, however, not long. It is so short that it lasts just for an instant of noting. Then the meditator reviews what has occurred. He knows that the cessation of the material process noted and the mental process noting them is the realization of magga-phala-nibbāna.... They would say inwardly: "I have now realized nibbāna and have attained sotāpatti magga-phala."

Patrick Kearney (student of U Paṇḍita and teacher in the Burmese tradition), The Development of Insight:

    In practice, what happens is that the meditator is practicing, every aspect of his meditation is subtle, clear and bright, and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on.

tiltbillings wrote:Thanks. You make my point.

You're welcome. Now we can all sheepishly congregate like good little Buddhists.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Brizzy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:12 pm

The path/fruit aspect taught in the Burmese vipassana traditions is a glaring example of something the Buddha did not teach. According to the BV tradition one cannot attain the path without immediately attaining the fruit. Such a view is not tenable when the Buddha teaches of eight noble disciples...........


" And furthermore, just as the ocean is the abode of such mighty beings as whales, whale-eaters, and whale-eater-eaters; asuras, nagas, and gandhabbas, and there are in the ocean beings one hundred leagues long, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five hundred leagues long; in the same way, this Doctrine and Discipline is the abode of such mighty beings as stream-winners and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; arahants and those practicing for arahantship. The fact that this Doctrine and Discipline is the abode of such mighty beings as stream-winners and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; arahants and those practicing for arahantship: This is the eighth amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline that, as they see it again and again, has the monks greatly pleased with the Doctrine and Discipline.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.05.than.html#abode

:smile:

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:17 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:Lest anyone think that I'm merely painting a caricature I submit the following from the teachers themselves. . . .
And that, of course, characterizes the whole. Again, you make my point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:46 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:He seems to be saying that some conditioned dhammas are not momentary. What does that mean? Some kind of seeing last longer on others? On what account ?

On account of the suttas, such as SN 12.61:

    It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.



I don't see how this sutta supports the view that some conditioned dhammas are not momentary? It is only explaining the perspective of the run-of-the mill person, it seems.

dhamma follower wrote:Even without finding explicit explanation from the Buddha about the momentary rise and fall of dhammas, I find it to be so obvious that there is no need for proof.

There is a major difference between alteration and change (aññathatta & vipariṇāma) on the one hand, and the theory of discrete momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession, on the otherDavid Kalupahana, [i]Buddhist Philosophy: A Historical Analysis


I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession. Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?

When scholars only look for words, I think they risk missing out a lot of things .

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:35 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And that, of course, characterizes the whole. Again, you make my point.

Not to mention the dubious practice of attending to the continual "dissolution" (bhaṅga) of momentary nāma and rūpa. Never mind the fact that the idea of the continual "dissolution" of momentary nāma and rūpa is never attested to in the suttas and has nothing to do with the instructions found in the Satipaṭṭhāna Suttas and is introduced through the power of suggestion on the part of the vipassanā teacher and later confirmed as an actual and true perception of the impermanence of reality.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:37 pm

dhamma follower wrote:I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.

I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:42 pm

Hello Ñāṇa,

Ñāṇa wrote:And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.


What is your opinion about: Time is not an objective container into which dhammas are placed. Impermanence/Change is the quality of dhammas, and change is discontinuous because dhamma can endure.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:55 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And that, of course, characterizes the whole. Again, you make my point.

Not to mention the dubious practice of attending to the continual "dissolution" (bhaṅga) of momentary nāma and rūpa. Never mind the fact that the idea of the continual "dissolution" of momentary nāma and rūpa is never attested to in the suttas and has nothing to do with the instructions found in the Satipaṭṭhāna Suttas and is introduced through the power of suggestion on the part of the vipassanā teacher and later confirmed as an actual and true perception of the impermanence of reality.
And it never ends, but as usual you paint with broad brush strokes without any subtlety or discrimination.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:22 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.


What is your opinion about: Time is not an objective container into which dhammas are placed. Impermanence/Change is the quality of dhammas, and change is discontinuous because dhamma can endure.

I think we should avoid falling victim to the seductive allure of conceptual realism.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:34 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.


What is your opinion about: Time is not an objective container into which dhammas are placed. Impermanence/Change is the quality of dhammas, and change is discontinuous because dhamma can endure.

I think we should avoid falling victim to the seductive allure of conceptual realism.


Please explain. Empirically (not metaphysically!) we can see bodies growing older, aging and dying. This does not have to imply any metaphysics, just what can be empirically observed.

"this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters, not the "it is all an illusion" or "rupas change and die every second".
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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