Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:36 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Have you read anything Ven Analayo has written on the subject?


No, but I would like to.
I hope you do. You may not agree with him, but I hope you can appreciate his point of view.

The post was directed at Dukkhanirodha.
And I responded.

There is no fixation on the "present moment." It is a matter of staying present with the experience of the rise and fall of one's mind/body process, as the Buddha said: "you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself."


Exactly... there is no present moment, only what is experienced.
"Present movement" is a way of talking about things, just like the "I" in saying "'I' need to practice meditation more."

What you seem to be doing here, as several folks are, is trying to make concrete some thing that is quite fluid.


My intention was to show how fluid it can be.
That is a good thing, but please be open to the fact that vipassana-wallahs might be a little more sophisticated in their understanding of things than: 'Trying to fixate oneself in the "present moment".'
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
What you seem to be doing here, as several folks are, is trying to make concrete some thing that is quite fluid.


My intention was to show how fluid it can be.

That is a good thing, but please be open to the fact that vipassana-wallahs might be a little more sophisticated in their understanding of things than: 'Trying to fixate oneself in the "present moment".'


Of course... but I get that impression from Dukkhanirodha. Apologies in advance if that wasn't the case for him.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:32 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:and can you explain how then you understand "remembrance in the present" as being fundamentally different from "awareness in the present"?


In the context of samadhi practice, remembrance in the present is practiced as any of "recollections" (anussati), for example, the recollection of the Buddha, etc., or remembrance of the basis of concentration (arammana), perceptual image (nimitta).

Remembrance in the present is also directed to abandoning unskillful and developing the skillful, e.g.:

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It's obviously not an awareness of something presently happening.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:Goenka:
There are certain passages in the Buddha’s discourses where sati has the meaning of "memory." (Dīgha-nikāya: VRI I. 411; II. 374; PTS I. 180; II. 292). This is especially true when he refers to the special ability of remembering past lives which is developed by means of the practice of the jhānas (deep absorption concentration). But in the context of Satipaṭṭhāna, the practice of Vipassana, leading not to the jhānas but to purification of mind, sati can only be understood to mean awareness of the present moment rather than a memory of the past (or a dream of the future).


Thank you for the quote, it's interesting. I agree that in the context of Satipatthana, sati does not mean a memory of the past.

For Pa Auk there is probably no particular definition given by him. As stated above, he uses the word "mindfulness" to translate sati in the context of meditation practice and that seems to be good enough for him.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:It seems you grant a lot of credit to the late Theravada tradition. I don't see any valid ground for this. Rather, the only thing I consider as highly relevant and reliable is right practice with aroused effort for a long time.


I highly respect both practice and the Theravada tradition, which is still alive.

Dmytro wrote:and I repeat again: you are not able to provide a proper translation of 'parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā' since it would look like:
'setting the recollection/remembrance at the moustache area'


I don't see any problem with this. Obviously the object of remembrance is omitted here, and is implied:

"setting the remembrance (of the air as a basis of concentration) at the moustache area".

Dukkhanirodha wrote:I think i will stop trying to argue with you because you openly refuse to admit the evidence, which reveals your lack of intellectual honesty.


I am also inclined to stop the converstion with you, since your replies are consistently disrespectful, and arguments are directed at my personality.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:52 pm

Hi Dhamma Follower,

dhamma follower wrote:I didn't say that sati was "being focused". What i said was that sati doesn't only mean to remember to distinguish the wholesome from the unwholesome, but also means remembering ( i'd call it recording, actually) the working of the five khandas as they arise. It is not so much about the remembrance aspect of sati, but about the object of this "remembrance" .


Your words remind me of several relevant phrases:

"Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.

Or his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.

Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.

Or his mindfulness that 'There are mental qualities' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Without this "recording" of the arising of different dhammas here and now, how sampajana can come to know the characteristics of reality?


In my opinion, sati helps to keep in mind the precise sphere of practice, and its purpose, so that sampajana can be used to observe what's going on in that sphere, what arises and ceases there, how close is the goal.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:46 pm

retrofuturist wrote:It is not about defend or attack.
Given the amount of criticism directed at the Burmese vipassana traditions, often by folks who really do not have a clue about what they are talking, it looks like attack, and feels like defense.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I certainly do not know of any Buddhist meditation practice that advocates taking what is experienced as objectively real....

This is either a disingenuous statement or you are uninformed (or misinformed) about the Vipassanā meditation traditions which are based upon the view presented in the Visuddhimagga and further elaborated in post-Visuddhimagga commentaries.
And this enters into a set of topics the moves far afield from the OP, but has been discussed at length here, and, of course, it never, ever is so black and white as what you are trying to make it.

There's nothing to be gained by waffling. At some point one either buys into the view and system presented in the Visuddhimagga and post-Visuddhimagga treatises and commentaries or one doesn't.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:33 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:There's nothing to be gained by waffling. At some point one either buys into the view and system presented in the Visuddhimagga and post-Visuddhimagga treatises and commentaries or one doesn't.
Waffling? You should talk. Sorry (not really) that I do not buy into your black and white -- either/or -- view of things.

Back top the topic, please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:34 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Sati functions to direct awareness away from the five strands of sensual pleasure and place.

The above seems to conflict with what we read here:

Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows the mind accompanied by passion, as 'Mind with passion'....

Are you suggesting that this is an injunction to simply sit wallowing in passion and other defilements? I don't think it is. SN 47.6 Sakuṇagghi Sutta:

    Do not stray, monks, into what is not your own range and is the domain of others. Māra will gain access to those who stray into what is not their own range and is the domain of others. Māra will get a hold on them.

    And what, for a monk, is not his own range and is the domain of others? The five strands of sensual pleasure.... These, for a monk, are not his own range and are the domain of others.

    Move, monks, in what is your own range, your own ancestral domain. Māra will not gain access to those who move in their own range, their own ancestral domain. Māra will not get a hold on them.

    And what, for a monk, is his own range, his own ancestral domain? The four applications of mindfulness. Which four? Here monks, a monk remains contemplating the body in the body, ardent, fully aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and unhappiness with regard to the world. He remains contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... phenomena in phenomena, ardent, fully aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and unhappiness with regard to the world. This, for a monk, is his own range, his own ancestral domain.

We have to remember that sammāsati is an integral member of a group: the aggregate of meditative composure (samādhikkhandha). This group also includes right effort (sammāvāyāma) and right meditative composure (sammāsamādhi). And as the Vibhaṅga informs us, the function of remaining ardent within the sammāsati instruction, means applying appropriate effort and exertion as one practices. Therefore, sammāsati isn't so passive as Ven. Anālayo would have us believe.

dhamma follower wrote:By Inferential, do you mean through a kind of mental process, no direct understanding?

Saññā is a mental process. As is ñāṇa and all other mental phenomena. And as Sn 4.13 tells us, an arahant doesn't follow views (na diṭṭhisāri) and isn't tied even to gnosis (napi ñāṇabandhu). Also, AN 4.24 Kāḷakārāma Sutta:

    Whatever is seen or heard or sensed
    and fastened onto as true by others,
    One who is Such — among the self-fettered —
    wouldn't further claim to be true or even false.

    Having seen well in advance that arrow
    where generations are fastened & hung
    — 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' —
    there's nothing of the Tathāgata fastened.

dhamma follower wrote:Would you provide textual support for this?

Regarding saññā, SN 22.95 Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta:

    Recognition (saññā) is like a mirage.

Regarding the entire complex of name-and-form (nāmarūpa), Sn 3.12: Dvayatānupassanā Sutta:

    Whatever is transitory certainly has a false nature.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Alex123 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:14 pm

dhamma follower wrote:The above seems to conflict with what we read here:
Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows[49] the mind accompanied by passion,[50] as 'Mind with passion'; he knows the mind unaccompanied by passion, as 'Mind without passion';


Since sati is or includes memory, one remembers the past instance of passion or one analyzes the nature of passion in general.

I do not believe that the Buddha asks us to produce passion, an akusala state. Never! Same with other akusala states.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:29 pm

Alex123 wrote:I do not believe that the Buddha asks us to produce passion, an akusala state. Never! Same with other akusala states.
The question is what do you do with already arisen passion?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:44 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The question is what do you do with already arisen passion?

To remedy desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda, also rāga) we are instructed to attend to, develop, and maintain recognition of an unattractive object (asubhanimitta). AN 1.2 Nīvaraṇappahāṇavagga:

    No other phenomenon do I know, monks, on account of which unarisen desire for sensual pleasure does not arise and arisen desire for sensual pleasure is abandoned as much as on account of this: an unattractive object. For one who attends properly to an unattractive object, unarisen desire for sensual pleasure does not arise and arisen desire for sensual pleasure is abandoned.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Alex123 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:I do not believe that the Buddha asks us to produce passion, an akusala state. Never! Same with other akusala states.
The question is what do you do with already arisen passion?


Practice to remember that it is anicca, dukkha, anatta, that body is just the body, feelings are just the feelings, mental states are just mental states, etc to make it less likely to arise, or not arise at all, in the future.

Ñāṇa wrote:To remedy desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda, also rāga) we are instructed to attend to, develop, and maintain recognition of an unattractive object (asubhanimitta). AN 1.2 Nīvaraṇappahāṇavagga:


And one needs to actually remember this when passion arises.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:16 pm

Alex123 wrote:And one needs to actually remember this when passion arises.

Indeed. And also be motivated to actually engage in abandoning it.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:32 pm

Greetings Tilt,

Re: nama-rupa...

retrofuturist wrote:Name and form

tiltbillings wrote:However what is not a joke, when I refer to the mind/body process...

Jake Davis, c/o- Tilt wrote:psychophysical personality

Yes - very different to how I regard it, and consequently exponentially different when looked at from the POV of the "'whirlpool" with vinnana. Very different implications, especially when working out how to regard Bhikkhu Nanananda's comments (which is how we set off down this path in the first place).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dan74 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:39 pm

Dmytro (and others),

When in the context of samadhi, one remembers to abandon the unskillful and unskillful is abandoned, then what?

I am sitting and I have let gone all thoughts and impulses relating to craving and aversion, now what?

What of instructions to Bahiya, are they relevant to meditation practice, to samadhi, to insight?

What I am getting at is that insight happens by attending to what is, not just by recollecting the teachings. If one does not attend to what is and see conceit of self arise as it relates to an arising of a phenomenon in the present moment, then how can the "house-builder be seen"?

The map is important and following it correctly is important but if one doesn't carefully look and see where one is, the map is of little use.

Sorry if all this is obvious.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:49 pm

Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:Sorry if all this is obvious.

If anything, it's the assumption that the above is "obvious" which is problematic.

Dan74 wrote:What I am getting at is that insight happens by attending to what is, not just by recollecting the teachings.

And if that were as true, the Sutta Pitaka would consist solely of the Satipatthana Sutta. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of MN 10, but there's more to it than just that. To compartmentalise and polarize "study" against "meditation" is not the Buddha's path - both, in various combinations, are well represented in the Noble Eightfold Path. To marginalise one and relegate it to an inferior status, as if one of the two falls within the domain of experience and the other doesn't, results in a lop-sided approach. Also problematic is when there is a false assumption that others practice one polarity and not the other, merely because of the way they express their understanding and experiences.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dan74 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:53 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:Sorry if all this is obvious.

If anything, it's the assumption that the above is "obvious" which is problematic.

Dan74 wrote:What I am getting at is that insight happens by attending to what is, not just by recollecting the teachings.

And if that were as true, the Sutta Pitaka would consist solely of the Satipatthana Sutta. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of MN 10, but there's more to it than just that. To compartmentalise and polarize "study" against "meditation" is not the Buddha's path - both, in various combinations, are well represented in the Noble Eightfold Path. To marginalise one and relegate it to an inferior status, as if one of the two falls within the domain of experience and the other doesn't, results in a lop-sided approach.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hi Retro

My intention was not to marginalise study at all, but to inquire whether insight can happen without closely attending to the present moment (among other things).

I did say "the map is important and following it correctly is important..." Doesn't sound like marginalising to me.

For a simple practitioner like myself I'd like to understand where this tug-of-war between recollecting the teachings, remembering to abandon the unwholesome and to cultivate the wholesome, on the one hand and attending closely to what is, bare awareness, mindfulness of the present moment, on the other hand, leave us in practice.

To my ways of seeing while the former is not possible without the latter - how can you abandon what you are not aware of?

A question then arises whether simply attending/ mindful of the present moment, aware is enough to pierce through the veil ignorance and delusion or whether some further remembrance/recollecting is necessary. "Oh house-builder, thou art seen, thou shall build houses no more!" is this the way, or we need to keep recollecting the teachings throughout?
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Alex123 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:00 pm

Dan74 wrote:My intention was not to marginalise study at all, but to inquire whether insight can happen without closely attending to the present moment (among other things).


And every conscious moment we are aware of the only moment there is, the present moment. Awareness of the present moment is the only awareness that can be, and it is present in all states of consciousness. Even in animals. So something more is required than what we all have anyways.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:06 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Dan74 wrote:My intention was not to marginalise study at all, but to inquire whether insight can happen without closely attending to the present moment (among other things).


And every conscious moment we are aware of the only moment there is, the present moment. Awareness of the present moment is the only awareness that can be, and it is present in all states of consciousness. Even in animals. So something more is required than what we all have anyways.


Well, that'll be where having sampajana as part of sati is important, yes?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dan74 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:08 pm

I asked whether insight can happen without it, and you say it is not enough. The question, Alex, was not whether it is enough, but rather whether it can happen without it.

Obviously right awareness, samasati is necessary. We cling to aspects of the present, invest them with a sense of self, etc hence it is not right mindfulness and does not lead to insight, as far as I can tell.
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