Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

[Nyana]

IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters

Yes, I agree.

[chownah]

Empirically (not metaphysically!) we can see bodies growing older, aging and dying. This does not have to imply any metaphysics, just what can be empirically observed.

I want to point out that we can not see bodies growing older. As a first approximation what we do is to observe a body at different points of time and note differences....then we use these differences to support a fabricated concept of "aging" or "growing older". Also, I think that people would agree that as time passes everything gets older whether there is an observed change or not.....so then "getting older" is just another way of saying that time has passed.
chownah

[retrofuturist]

Nice observation, Chownah.

Metta,
Retro.

[ancientbuddhism]

The Early Buddhist Notion of the Middle Path – David J. Kalupahana


In addition to discussing the Middle Way intrinsic to teachings of the early schools, there is discussion of ‘theories of moments (kṣaṇa)’ from page 3.

[dhamma follower]

I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.

I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.

which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Regards,

[dhamma follower]

"this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters, not the "it is all an illusion" or "rupas change and die every second".

Hi Alex,

The first sacca, sacca dukkha includes aging, but extends far beyond than that.

The five aggregates of clinging are the last to be mentioned. Without knowing directly the characteristics of each khanda, as dhammas, how can you know them by your own experience as anicca, dukkha, anatta?

Regards,

[Nyana]

I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.

which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Oh? How so?

[daverupa]

Mindfulness and Awareness, by Ñāṇavīra Thera

The Pali word for awareness is sampajañña. In the suttas it is frequently linked with mindfulness (sati) in the compound sati-sampajañña, mindfulness and awareness. In the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, awareness (of bodily actions) is included in the section on mindfulness of the body, so we can perhaps conclude that, while it is not different from mindfulness, awareness is rather more specialised in meaning. Mindfulness is general recollectedness, not being scatterbrained; whereas awareness is more precisely keeping oneself under constant observation, not letting one’s actions (or thoughts, or feelings etc.) pass unnoticed.

source

[dhamma follower]

I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.

which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Oh? How so?

I had presented my reasoning earlier:

Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?

Regards,

[daverupa]

I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.

I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.

which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Regards,

Well, paticcasamuppada is a process, while discreet momentary dhammas form an event-series (with concomitant problems to do with continuity). So, in fact, the Buddha's preference for talking in terms of paticcasamuppada (or rather, idapaccayata) - instead of via a theory of innumerable dhammas - is noteworthy in this context. A lot of people think momentary dhammas are what the Buddha was really talking about, but he never actually does so. It's all process-based language, never event-based.

[Nyana]

I had presented my reasoning earlier:

Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?

This sounds to me like an interpretation of experience based on a profusion of mental proliferation.

[alan]

More to the point, it assumes the conclusion, which is a logical fallacy.

[daverupa]

More to the point, it assumes the conclusion, which is a logical fallacy.

[Assaji]

Hi Dhamma Follower,

Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?

The key feature of Conditioned Arising is that, in full complexity, it is non-linear. Recognition (sanna), feeling (vedana) and will (cetana) happen in parallel, being conditioned by contact (phassa), which requires consciousness (vinnana):

Phuttho bhikkhave vedeti, phuttho ceteti, phuttho sañjānāti...

Contacted, monks, one feels; contacted, one intends; contacted, one recognizes;...

SN35.93

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the linear model of "consciousness moments" is, in my opinion, an oversimplification.

Regards,

[dhamma follower]

Hi Dhamma Follower,

Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?

The key feature of Conditioned Arising is that, in full complexity, it is non-linear. Recognition (sanna), feeling (vedana) and will (cetana) happen in parallel, being conditioned by contact (phassa), which requires consciousness (vinnana):

Phuttho bhikkhave vedeti, phuttho ceteti, phuttho sañjānāti...

Contacted, monks, one feels; contacted, one intends; contacted, one recognizes;...

SN35.93

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticca.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the linear model of "consciousness moments" is, in my opinion, an oversimplification.

Regards,

Hi Dmytro,

Of course it is not linear. When citta arises with one object, many cetasikas arise also at the same time. I understand that. But when the object changes, that means it is not the same citta any more, right? Visible object is not the same than sound, smell,...or thoughts. The sanna that arises and recognize someone is not the same than the ones that are are involved in thinking about how to avoid him. Because the objects are many, cittas must be many too.

Regards,