Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ground
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by ground »

TMingyur wrote:... "later" Mahayana I am familiar with through study ... teaches re-appearance (re-births) despite liberation through means of aspiration only (i.e. not driven by karma).
This view seems to be supported by the Sankhàruppattisutta.
... the bhikkhu is endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
TMingyur wrote:... "later" Mahayana I am familiar with through study ... teaches re-appearance (re-births) despite liberation through means of aspiration only (i.e. not driven by karma).
This view seems to be supported by the Sankhàruppattisutta.
... the bhikkhu is endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom.
Kind regards
Please clarify: You are saying that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn solely on the basis aspiration? And you are saying that the sutta you linked supports that? If so, please quote the section that of that sutta that supports your claim, if your claim is that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn by virtue of aspiration.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:Please clarify: You are saying that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn solely on the basis aspiration? And you are saying that the sutta you linked supports that? If so, please quote the section that of that sutta that supports your claim, if your claim is that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn by virtue of aspiration.
I am just engaging in literary analysis and comparison and referring to sources. I am not asserting anything that can be found there to be "true" on the basis of the words referred to.

Kind regards
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Please clarify: You are saying that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn solely on the basis aspiration? And you are saying that the sutta you linked supports that? If so, please quote the section that of that sutta that supports your claim, if your claim is that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn by virtue of aspiration.
I am just engaging in literary analysis and comparison and referring to sources. I am not asserting anything that can be found there to be "true" on the basis of the words referred to.

Kind regards
Okay, but quite frankly, now I have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Please clarify: You are saying that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn solely on the basis aspiration? And you are saying that the sutta you linked supports that? If so, please quote the section that of that sutta that supports your claim, if your claim is that an awakened/liberated individual can be reborn by virtue of aspiration.
I am just engaging in literary analysis and comparison and referring to sources. I am not asserting anything that can be found there to be "true" on the basis of the words referred to.

Kind regards
Okay, but quite frankly, now I have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
I think it's obvious. While Sylvester asserted that early Mahayana claimed aspiration to be the cause of non-stream entry I said that there are (is at least one) later Mahayana school(s) claiming re-appearance/re-birth being caused by aspiration although liberation has been attained.
Looking for a sutta that may be support for this view I found the one quoted where there is mention of re-appearance/re-birth caused by aspiration the individuals being qualified with "endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom."

Kind regards
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote: I think it's obvious. While Sylvester asserted that early Mahayana claimed aspiration to be the cause of non-stream entry I said that there are (is at least one) later Mahayana school(s) claiming re-appearance/re-birth being caused by aspiration although liberation has been attained.
Looking for a sutta that may be support for this view I found the one quoted where there is mention of re-appearance/re-birth caused by aspiration the individuals being qualified with "endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom."

Kind regards
Thank you for the clarification. Please quote the whole of the passage you are referring to.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote: I think it's obvious. While Sylvester asserted that early Mahayana claimed aspiration to be the cause of non-stream entry I said that there are (is at least one) later Mahayana school(s) claiming re-appearance/re-birth being caused by aspiration although liberation has been attained.
Looking for a sutta that may be support for this view I found the one quoted where there is mention of re-appearance/re-birth caused by aspiration the individuals being qualified with "endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom."

Kind regards
Thank you for the clarification. Please quote the whole of the passage you are referring to.
It is repeated nearly "endlessly" (in other translations than the one linked above) like a refrain which goes like this
`Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu is endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom. It occurs to the bhikkhu, O! I should be born with [location/environment where the aspiration is directed to] at the breakup of the body, after death. He bears it in the mind, directs thoughts to it, develops that thought. Those intentions and that abiding, developed and made much, conduces to be born there. This is the path and method to be born there.
This shows that the Buddha taught re-appearance/re-birth through aspiration. And the qualities are characterized as "endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom." and they are not characterized as "endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and ignorance."


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Sylvester
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by Sylvester »

TMingyur wrote:I think it's obvious. While Sylvester asserted that early Mahayana claimed aspiration to be the cause of non-stream entry I said that there are (is at least one) later Mahayana school(s) claiming re-appearance/re-birth being caused by aspiration although liberation has been attained.
You mis-read me, I'm afraid.
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by ground »

Sylvester wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I think it's obvious. While Sylvester asserted that early Mahayana claimed aspiration to be the cause of non-stream entry I said that there are (is at least one) later Mahayana school(s) claiming re-appearance/re-birth being caused by aspiration although liberation has been attained.
You mis-read me, I'm afraid.
You are right. You did not assert this but you suggested as an option:
Hard to say whether the "non-entry" into the stream is a function of conscious cetana, or simply the product of the power of the aspiration...
Anyway "non-entry" has been your focus in the context of early Mahayana which does not seem to be the view of some "later" Mahayana if one puts aside the mere non-conventionality of the term "stream entry" in Mahayana.

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Sylvester
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Re: Can one control one's own progress toward enlightenment?

Post by Sylvester »

I should have been more careful in saying that my mulling was in reference to the Theravadin "bodhisatta".
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