Ontology of Nibbana

Where members are free to take ideas from the Theravāda Canon out of the Theravāda framework. Here you can question rebirth, kamma (and other contentious issues) as well as examine Theravāda's connection to other paths
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:25 am

mikenz66 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Over on freesangha, Tilt, they're saying all kinds of things!!! Not so much here!!!

You mean the "true self" stuff here?
Consciousness in the context of the 5 skandhas, vinnana - is sense consciousness, i.e., cognitive thoughts. Thoughts arise and cease, but that which is aware of the arising and ceasing does NOT arise nor cease.

Vinnana is NOT the Citta - thoughts are NOT the True Mind. But people confuse this all the time.

Thoughts arise and cease. But the True Mind does not arise nor cease along with those thoughts.

It is extremely important to make this distinction.
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/genera ... /#msg64294

That's certainly a very odd interpretation from a Theravada point of view.


Hi Mike, all :hello:

It's a tricky one and I won't pretend to know the answer. I've certainly heard some (Mahayana) teachers that I have a great deal of respect for, say similar things and there is scriptural support for it. My (current) take on this is that it is all too easy to reify various aspects of the mind that are conditioned and take them for "the True Mind". Whatever the True/Original/Buddha nature refers to is beyond any subjectivity, beyond anything that can be "me" or "mine" - there are no obstacles there, no place to pitch a tent and build new identifications. That's why it is called "non-abiding".


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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby convivium » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:20 pm

I'm also interested in correlations between citta in the thai forest tradition and certain formulations of buddha nature.
I've heard a buddhist scholar simply equate the two (my aunt's son who wrote http://www.amazon.com/dp/019537519X told my this in person when i asked him).
However, I'd also like to continue with the discussion of nibbana.
Do these passages on nibbana dhatu conclusively signify that nibbana is indeed a sort of realm outside the aggregates?

For the supported there is instability, for the unsupported there is no instability; when there is no instability there is serenity; when there is serenity there is no inclination: when there is no inclination there is no coming-and-going; when there is no coming-and-going there is no decease-and-uprising; when there is no decease-and-uprising there is neither "here" nor "beyond" nor "in between the two." Just this is the end of suffering. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Tachibana » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:59 pm

Stop wrongly taking "nibbaana" as "a being" or anything like it.

"nibbaana" isn't unbound, unborn or unfabricated : it is THE unbound, THE unborn, THE unfabricated.

Now what is THE unbound, THE unborn, THE unfabricated ?
It is the lack of conditioned phenomena that are fashioned, born, fabricated as the result of delusion.

The consciousness that "takes nibbaana as object" results from one of the 4 paths, and so it's one of the 4 fruits.

Now what is "parinibbaana" ?
It is the lack [of conditioned phenomena] that is no more "taken as object" by any consciousness, due to the lack of kammic fruits (the death of material form such as mind-base).

I also used to ponder about "nibbaana", but I've finally come to understand it and now I'm a "Sakadaagaami".
Go there, it's useful : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... averb.html

Just PM me if you seek advises on how to have a direct experience of the Dhamma (3 characteristics, 12 "nidana", 4 noble truths and "nibbaana").
Last edited by Tachibana on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Viscid » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:06 pm

It seems that people have a difficult time accepting the fact Nibbana is not a transcendent thing but rather the absence of all that which causes suffering. Why is it the case that people find such a fact difficult to accept? I think, it is because they operate from the bias of a metaphysic they hold prior to their conceptualization of the term 'Nibbana.' That is, they value a concept of some sort of transcendent aspect to the world highly, and then forcefully integrate that concept into the Buddhist framework.. To them, the Buddhist goal is not merely to end suffering, but to realize that transcendent aspect.

But, because The Buddha did not concern himself with a transcendent aspect to the world does not mean that such a transcendent aspect does not exist-- it simply has nothing to do with ending one's suffering, and, in fact, may be yet another object to which one can attach.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Tachibana » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:08 pm

"Consciousness without surface, without end, luminous all around :
Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.
Here long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form are all brought to an end."

"With the cessation of the aggregate of consciousness each is here brought to an end."


That's the Arahant's fruit, "resulting" from the elimination of craving (the Arahant's path).

You can't get attached to nibbaana since it's not a phenomenom.
As I previously said, nibbaana is THE unborn : "whatever" isn't born is nibbaana.
Birth is the result of craving, thus nibbana is the result of the end of craving.

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