Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:14 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It is called nibbana because one is unbound to the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion. One no longer makes, creates, puts together based upon greed, hatred, and delusion, and one is free from birth because one is no longer re-born..

I'am agree.


tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha never said such a thing, and if that were true, then there would be no need for any sort of practice, there would be no ignorance, no conditioning based upon greed, hatred, and delusion.


Nibbana is difficult to see for the one who's mind is deluded.

Like it's difficult for eye to watch into himself.
Like it's difficult for hand to say hello or tuch it itself.
Like it's difficult for foot to step on it's own fingers.
So it's difficult for mind to reach Nibbana.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Peoples are conditioned by Nibbana, but they dont understand that Nibbana is in other direction, and much more nearer, actualy there is nothink more closely to our mind that Nibbana. So being ignorant about anicca, dukkha and anatta, they want reach material happyness by thinking that the True Happyness is in form, felling, perception, volitional formation, consciosness. But their motivations have pure nature:
- Freedom: by getting money, and power,enfuence others and make all they want. Be free.
- Safe/Stability: by getting family, home, friends, hobbie, good job and others support for ego/me/I
- Calm: they dont want be stressed, pushed, running etc (if our nature was mouvement, and not calm and release, so being's were eternal, to move eternaly. But dhammas knows borning, agging and death, they a not able to exist eternaly, their nature is not mouvement, but calm).

Mind is like a donkey, he is so possessed by carrot, that he don't see that he run on the carrot field.

It's just how thing realy are.

Perharps he have never said : "All beings are free, but dont know it, so they putt a collar and think that they are happy", but Buddha said this
There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:57 pm

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It is called nibbana because one is unbound to the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion. One no longer makes, creates, puts together based upon greed, hatred, and delusion, and one is free from birth because one is no longer re-born..

I'am agree.
Actually, you don't agree (or understand) given what you go on to say:

DAWN wrote:Peoples are conditioned by Nibbana
How can something that is "unconditioned" and unchanging be a conditioning factor? If there is an unconditioned, unchanging thing, that would mean it is an absolute, unchanging thing that could have no relationship to what is relative and changes. For the supposedly unconditioned, unchanging thing to effect change by conditioned the changing and relative would mean the the agent of change would have to itself change, and would change, by its necessary action upon the relative conditioned thing. To act -- to condition -- is to change from being unconditioned/unchanging to conditioning which is to alter is nature, which means that the unconditioned, unchanging thing is neither unconditioned nor unchanging.

But dhammas knows borning, agging and death, they a not able to exist eternaly, their nature is not mouvement, but calm).
You are now just making up stuff that has no relationship to what the Buddha actually taught.
Perharps he have never said : "All beings are free, but dont know it, so they putt a collar and think that they are happy", but Buddha said this
There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
The problem is not with this passage, but with your attempting to turn it into a metaphysical thingie. You want these words to refer to some thing, but it has been carefully pointed out to you that what these words are referring to is the internal transformation of the person free from the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. Basically, you are still grasping after a self with your wanting nibbana to be some sort of ground, some sort of unconditioned conditioning thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Actually, you don't agree (or understand) given what you go on to say .

Yes, i'am agree, because i cant desagree with truth. There is just one nuance.
Nibbana is not destruction of greed hatred and delusion, but Nibbana is condition to destruction (uproot) of it.

Take a note about the vilonce of word DESTRUCTION. It's not like if this feelings are healed like a ilness or diminished.
But it's DESTRUCTED complitely and definitively ! Like there is never been such things like greed, hatred and delusion, and you dont understand WHY peoples feel it. :shrug:

tiltbillings wrote:How can something that is "unconditioned" and unchanging be a conditioning factor? If there is an unconditioned, unchanging thing, that would mean it is an absolute, unchanging thing that could have no relationship to what is relative and changes. For the supposedly unconditioned, unchanging thing to effect change by conditioned the changing and relative would mean the the agent of change would have to itself change, and would change, by its necessary action upon the relative conditioned thing. To act -- to condition -- is to change from being unconditioned/unchanging to conditioning which is to alter is nature, which means that the unconditioned, unchanging thing is neither unconditioned nor unchanging. .

Because it's the way what thing are.
What is stable and permanent, condition what is unstable and impermanent.

There is many exemples in mouvement of dhammas. I will take two: planets and peoples.
Sun have much more important weight that planets, black hole, in the middle of Milky Way, have much more important weight that stars.
Planets are conditioned by stars, stars are conditioned by black hole.
Why?
Because hole is more stable that stars, stars are more stables that planets.
Because what is permanent is condition to what is impermanent.

Dhammas are the same mouvement everywhere, it's tha same Dhamma for all dhammas, so people's mouvement is leaded by the same law that stars. The one who have much more money and power, is more free, uncnditioned and permanent (in life too, he survive better, thats why animals are conditioned by humans, humans are conditioned by devas etc), thats why the one, who have money, take the role of conditioning factor for others, who have less money, less freedom.
Also, we can take a less evident exemple of Dhamma.
A killer or theif. He is unconditioned by the socials laws, and because he is free and not conditioned by it, he take the role of conditioning factor for this society. Peoples go by guns and adopt others behaviors conditioned by killer or theif.

Thats why Nibbana is condition to Samsara.
But dhammas, and living beings, dont know why they have such or such behavour, why they want to get money, why thy want to ge... family, friends childrens, have enfluence to others... They want be free, feel stability and calm. They are seekers of Nibbana.

Sabbe dhamma anatta.

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is not with this passage, but with your attempting to turn it into a metaphysical thingie. You want these words to refer to some thing, but it has been carefully pointed out to you that what these words are referring to is the internal transformation of the person free from the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. Basically, you are still grasping after a self with your wanting nibbana to be some sort of ground, some sort of unconditioned conditioning thing.


There is nothink metaphysical, you can see Dhamma in your daily life, your own behavour, inside or outside of you, you have just to direct your mind on Dhamma, and watch...

Samsara speak Dhamma. We have just to listen attentively this teaching of Buddha.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:11 pm

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, you don't agree (or understand) given what you go on to say .

Yes, i'am agree, because i cant desagree with truth. There is just one nuance.
Nibbana is not destruction of greed hatred and delusion, but Nibbana is condition to destruction (uproot) of it.
Of course, and as usual, you are just making up stuff and really do not have a handle on what the Buddha taught.

    That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321
    That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata ["unconditioned"]. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362
The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. If what you are saying is true, then that would mean that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach and that it is a conditioned thing, which the Buddha did not teach. If nibbana already existed in the individual, there would be no need to for doing the practice, because the individual would have no greed, hatred or delusion.

A killer or theif, he is unconditioned by the socials laws, and because he is free and not conditioned by it, he take the role of conditioning factor for this law. Peoples go by guns and adopt others behaviors conditioned by killer or theif.
Whih goes to show how poorly you understand the issues at hand. That a criminal may not abide by the laws, does not mean that as an actor he is unconditioned by the laws, which he will have knowledge of and act in ways to try to avoid the consequences of them. And you make my point, you are trying to turn nibbana into some thing that acts, which means it is a conditioned, changing thing.

I read this stuff you are writing, and I wonder whether you are simply pulling my leg with the stuff you are writing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby nibbuti » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:You want these words to refer to some thing, but it has been carefully pointed out to you that what these words are referring to is the internal transformation of the person free from the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. Basically, you are still grasping after a self

Hi tiltbillings

What do you think is the difference between these two:

1. "internal (trans)formation of person"

2. "grasping after self"?

tiltbillings wrote:with your wanting nibbana to be some sort of ground, some sort of unconditioned conditioning thing.

Are you sure it's not?:

There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements. - M 115


tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.
If what you are saying is true, then that would mean that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach

Are you sure the Buddha said this not?:

There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. - Ud 8.3


There seems to be a dissonance about the meaning of "thing"/dhamma and of conditionality.

:meditate:
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:25 am

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You want these words to refer to some thing, but it has been carefully pointed out to you that what these words are referring to is the internal transformation of the person free from the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. Basically, you are still grasping after a self

Hi tiltbillings

What do you think is the difference between these two:

1. "internal (trans)formation of person"

2. "grasping after self"?
Since I did not write "(trans)formation" your question really is not something I need to address, but I wonder if for the person who becomes an arahant if there is not a transformation. Now, of course, in talking about this we need to use language, but we can also need not get caught up in mistaking conventional usage as meaning more than a way of talking about things.

tiltbillings wrote:with your wanting nibbana to be some sort of ground, some sort of unconditioned conditioning thing.

Are you sure it's not?:

There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements. - M 115
Element here is dhatu. Since you are the one using it, you should be the one to be able to explain its actual meaning. Please do.

tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.
If what you are saying is true, then that would mean that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach

Are you sure the Buddha said this not?:

There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. - Ud 8.3


There seems to be a dissonance about the meaning of "thing"/dhamma and of conditionality.
Ypur point here is less than clear. Please clarify your question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:06 am

tiltbillings wrote: Of course, and as usual, you are just making up stuff and really do not have a handle on what the Buddha taught.

    That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321
    That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata ["unconditioned"]. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.

For destruction there must be some explosion, some revelation, some insight. I remember you said that there is no destruction of greed hatred and delusion without insight.
This insight is actualy Nibbana. The revelation.
The "revelation" have no any existance, but there is revelation, and this profound revelation of true nature of fenomenas - anatta, take a place of condition. It's like when you dreaming, when you open your eyes, there is destruction of dream. But you must to open your eyes. This openning, is insight, is condition.

Samsara, and dhammas, still the same, but it become Nibbana, it become free from ego, it become anatta.

Once i read some zen text, where one man explain his insight like this : Master, before i saw trees, rivers, peoples... BUT NOW, i see trees, rivers and peoples. :shock: It's exactly like this. Nothink change, but all change. It's paradoxal, but it's like this.

tiltbillings wrote:If what you are saying is true, then that would mean that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach and that it is a conditioned thing, which the Buddha did not teach. If nibbana already existed in the individual, there would be no need to for doing the practice, because the individual would have no greed, hatred or delusion.

Actualy the similie with a circle, with a wheel, is perfect. Becaose it's exactly like this.
Circle have a hole, and without hole there is no cercle, actualy hole is the most important part of cercle, but there is no hole.
And when it's revelated, self-identification stops, because you see that form it's not mine, feeling it's not mine, perception it's not mine, volitional formation it's not mine, consciosness it's not mine. So there is great freedom from all which established. This freedom is not somethink that have self-existance, it's exist until there is jail. Freedom is Nibbana. And when the body die, there is a final liberation, final Nibbana.
For the one who is in jail, "freedom" conception can take some self-existantial form, but actualy all is free, conception of freedom exist until you are in jail, but in reality there is no any freedom like conception or self-existant think, because dhammas are free from ego by their nature.

Ajhan Mun said this:

§14. Activityless-ness is the end point of the world, beyond supposing and formulation.

The four Noble Truths — suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path to its cessation — are activities in that each truth has an aspect that has to be done: Suffering has to be understood, its cause abandoned, its cessation made clear, and the path to its cessation developed. All of these are aspects that have to be done — and if they have to be done, they must be activities. So we can conclude that all four truths are activities. This is in keeping with the first verse quoted above, which speaks of the four truths as feet, stair treads, or steps that must be taken for the task to be finished. What follows is thus termed activityless-ness — like writing the numerals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0, then erasing 1-9, leaving just 0, and not writing anything more. What is left is read as 'zero,' but it doesn't have any value at all. You can't use it to add, subtract, multiply, or divide with any other numerals, yet at the same time you can't say that it doesn't exist, for there it is: 0 (zero).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eased.html

A cercle with a hole is a perfect exemple of Nibbana/Samsara.
Wheel of Dhamma, is not a wheel just for fun, actualy in this Wheel, there is all Dhamma. Thats why it's said "Dhamma Wheel"

All fenomenas have a cyclic existance, their form is cercle. In state of relaxation (freedom), for exemple a drop of water in space, dhammas take their true form, sphere.
Cercle is endowed of equnanimity and wisdom, because to center from surface there is the same distance, because from center all surface is visible without contact, there is no left or right, up or dawn, there is no space, there is no good or bad, pleasure or pain. Also there is no mouvement of center, so there is no time, there is no agging or death.
Also Buddha said that there is no begining to Samsara, why? Because when we walk on the surface of the cercle, of the sphere of existance, there is no begining and no end.
Thats why it said that "Liberated by wisdom", or "Nibbana is reached by the wise", or "Nibbana is visible for the wise". It's because Dhamma is a Wheel, and the wheel is a form of wisdom and equnanimity.

tiltbillings wrote:Whih goes to show how poorly you understand the issues at hand. That a criminal may not abide by the laws, does not mean that as an actor he is unconditioned by the laws, which he will have knowledge of and act in ways to try to avoid the consequences of them. And you make my point, you are trying to turn nibbana into some thing that acts, which means it is a conditioned, changing thing.

I read this stuff you are writing, and I wonder whether you are simply pulling my leg with the stuff you are writing.


I'am a not expert in killer behavour, but it's true that laws have some influence on his behavour, but not the behavour of "killing", and ancrualy peoples dont affraid this man, but his killing behavour, and they are conditioned by it.

No, not exaclty.
Nibbana dont act, but all action are conditioned by it, all actions turn around it, enfluenced by it, lead to it etc. You will ask me, how dhammas are leaded to Nibbana? Absolutely naturaly. All energy, all fenomena, when arise, she goes from agitating state (born, agging) to calm state (death). So their nature lead them to their true state.
In nature, on the beach, you can take a note that all waves goes to the ground, and that there is no waves without ground.

Like it's said
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.


This why i say that Nibbana (freedom, calm, stability) is conditioning factor for dhammas, is true nature of dhammas. Like a hole is nature of wheel.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:09 am

DAWN wrote:
This insight is actualy Nibbana. The revelation.
Again, you are making up stuff. Vipassana, insight, is not nibbana.

The "revelation" have no any existance, but there is revelation, and this profound revelation of true nature of fenomenas - anatta, take a place of condition. It's like when you dreaming, when you open your eyes, there is destruction of dream. But you must to open your eyes. This openning, is insight, is condition.
Not quite.

Samsara, and dhammas, still the same, but it become Nibbana, it become free from ego, it become anatta.
Not clear what you are saying. You need to spend a bit more time with trying to make clear what you are saying. Shorter, simpler sentences and using a spell-checker might help. Samsara and dhammas do not become nibbana.

Once i read some zen text, where one man explain his insight like this : Master, before i saw trees, rivers, peoples... BUT NOW, i see trees, rivers and peoples. It's exactly like this. Nothink change, but all change. It's paradoxal, but it's like this.
You might find a better home with Zen than here. Also, you have the story not quite right.

tiltbillings wrote:If what you are saying is true, then that would mean that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach and that it is a conditioned thing, which the Buddha did not teach. If nibbana already existed in the individual, there would be no need to for doing the practice, because the individual would have no greed, hatred or delusion.

Actualy the similie with a circle, with a wheel, is perfect. Becaose it's exactly like this.
You keep saying that, but you never actually show it to be so.

Circle have a hole, and without hole there is no cercle, actualy hole is the most important part of cercle, but there is no hole.
And when it's revelated, self-identification stops, because you see that form it's not mine, feeling it's not mine, perception it's not mine, volitional formation it's not mine, consciosness it's not mine. So there is great freedom from all which established. This freedom is not somethink that have self-existance, it's exist until there is jail. Freedom is Nibbana. And when the body die, there is a final liberation, final Nibbana.
But you just got done in your preceding sentence saying: “Nibbana is condition to destruction (uproot) of it.” That would mean that nibbana would have precede the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. From one msg to the next, you are neither consistent nor do you make sense.

A cercle with a hole is a perfect exemple of Nibbana/Samsara.
Not that you have shown.

Nibbana dont act, but all action are conditioned by it, all actions turn around it, enfluenced by it, lead to it etc.
Not that you have shown. You are still trying to make nibbana into some sort of thing separate from the one who is awakened.

You will ask me, how dhammas are leaded to Nibbana? Absolutely naturaly. All energy, all fenomena, when arise, she goes from agitating state (born, agging) to calm state (death). So their nature lead them to their true state.
Actually, no I won't ask you that. There is no point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:41 am

OK.
Don't matter.

Just keep walking on Eightfold Path. I will do the same.

Thanks for listening.
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Sabbe dhamma anatta
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:53 am

DAWN wrote:Don't matter.
It kind of does matter when it is an issue of not significantly distorting the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:59 am

Yes.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby polarbuddha101 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:27 am

Maybe we should stop metaphysically speculating about what nibbana is and just follow the path. Eventually we'll get to the point where the only thing left to do is let go completely and experience the unexcelled sublime state of peace, the stilling of all fabrications, the extinction of passion, aversion, delusion and the conceit I am. Sounds pretty nice to me. Of course, I have a long way to go. I'm not even a buddhist yet, but that's just because I'm procrastinating.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:45 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:Maybe we should stop metaphysically speculating about what nibbana is
Of course, practice is central. As for speculating about nibbana, little need for that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Maybe we should stop metaphysically speculating about what nibbana is
Of course, practice is central. As for speculating about nibbana, little need for that.


Thats why this cosmology have no matter.

I have never try to say that i see this Dhamma better. Dhamma is simple to understand, there is no merit, just right attention and right concentration.
Can you tell me what is your daily practice? I will tell the mine.

Friendly.
We are not concurents. :toast:

:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby nibbuti » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:
There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled

Element here is dhatu. Since you are the one using it, you should be the one to be able to explain its actual mraning. Please do.

As you wish.

Nibbana is called by the Buddha here the "unconditioned element (dhatu)".

An element, whether itself conditioned or not, is a natural 'thing' which can 'con-dition' (lat. together-speak, agree with, situate or come before) other things.

'Natural thing' can be understood as a potential for experience (rather than a created thing), including both suffering and non-suffering.

However, you said:
tiltbillings wrote:with your wanting nibbana to be some sort of ground, some sort of unconditioned conditioning thing.

Which implies nibbana is not an "unconditioned conditioning thing".

Which does not agree with the above Buddha-quote and explanation.


tiltbillings wrote:Please clarify your question.

Sure:

You said "The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion" and "that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach".

What you said does not quite agree with what the Buddha says here:

[i]There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. - Ud 8.3

In case it is still not clear, it says:

"If there were no [nibbana], no escape would be discerned from [dukkha]. But since there is [nibbana], therefore an escape is discerned from [dukkha]

In summary, the Buddha explains nibbana as

1. a dhatu (natural thing, element)

2. preceding (preexisting) an escape from dukkha.

However, you said:

tilt billings wrote:"The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion ... that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach

That is why I asked "Are you sure the Buddha said this not?".

It would be wise to not say the Buddha didn't teach what he taught.

Can you back up your statements by sutta quotes and wise contemplation?

Was that clear enough?

:meditate:
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:13 am

nibbuti wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled

Element here is dhatu. Since you are the one using it, you should be the one to be able to explain its actual meaning. Please do.

As you wish.

Nibbana is called by the Buddha here the "unconditioned element (dhatu)".

An element, whether itself conditioned or not, is a natural 'thing' which can 'con-dition' (lat. together-speak, agree with, situate) other things.
So, nibbana is a natural thing existing someplace, somehow, and it can condition other things, but itself has no condition – which means there is nothing by which we can locate it and how can something that has no attributes relative to the conditioned condition that which requires attributes for being conditioned? That is a lot like of the idea of an absolute, unchanging god interacting with the relative and changing.

One interesting thing about dhatu is that it gets stuck behind all sort of interesting words such as dukkha, viññāna, neither of which have any existence outside of the person. Dhatu is an interesting word, which may not be serviced well by the English word element.

However, you said:
tiltbillings wrote:with your wanting nibbana to be some sort of ground, some sort of unconditioned conditioning thing.

Which implies nibbana is not an "unconditioned conditioning thing".

Which does not agree with the above Buddha-quote.
I am afraid your point here is unclear.


tiltbillings wrote:Please clarify your question.

Sure:

You said "The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion" and "that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach".

What you said does not agree with what the Buddha says here:

There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. - Ud 8.3

In case it is still not clear, it says:

"If there were no [nibbana], no escape would be discerned from [dukkha]. But since there is [nibbana], therefore an escape is discerned from [dukkha]

In summary, the Buddha explains nibbana as

1. a dhatu (natural thing, element)

2. preceding (preexisting) an escape from dukkha.
Well, that may be one way to interpret that passage, but if it is so, then the Buddha is, in fact, advocating an existing, unchanging entity, thing, which is a definition for atta/atman. On this I'll go with Ven Nanananda: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15025#p216936

However, you said:

tilt billings wrote:"The Buddha clearly did not say that nibbana is a condition for the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion ... that nibbana is a preexisting thing, which the Buddha did not teach

That is why I asked "Are you sure the Buddha said this not?". It would be wise to not say the Buddha didn't teach what he taught.

But were you talking from direct experience or from rashly perceiving something as 'true'?

Can you back up your statements by sutta quotes?

Was that clear enough?
Was it clear enough. No. Can I back what I have said with sutta quotes? Sure. Am I talking from direct experience? Interesting question, but given that you seem to think that is important, you first.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:50 am

I'am sorry dear tiltbillings, i'am not sure that my reply was seen, or perharps forgot. :roll:

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Maybe we should stop metaphysically speculating about what nibbana is
Of course, practice is central. As for speculating about nibbana, little need for that.


Thats why this cosmology have no matter.

I have never try to say that i see this Dhamma better. Dhamma is simple to understand, there is no merit, just right attention and right concentration.
Can you tell me what is your daily practice? I will tell the mine.

Friendly.
We are not concurents. :toast:

:anjali:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:53 am

DAWN wrote:I'am sorry dear tiltbillings, i'am not sure that my reply was seen, or perharps forgot. :roll:

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Maybe we should stop metaphysically speculating about what nibbana is
Of course, practice is central. As for speculating about nibbana, little need for that.


Thats why this cosmology have no matter.

I have never try to say that i see this Dhamma better. Dhamma is simple to understand, there is no merit, just right attention and right concentration.
Can you tell me what is your daily practice? I will tell the mine.

Friendly.
We are not concurents. :toast:

:anjali:
Two things. Thank you for your kind note, but I am not going to talk about my practice "publicly."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:00 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Of course, practice is central. As for speculating about nibbana, little need for that.

Two things. Thank you for your kind note, but I am not going to talk about my practice "publicly."


It would be great if it would be possible, because it's interesting to know if practice is central in your buddhist life.
I have a good intention.

It is possible by personal message?

Frendly. :anjali:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, or is not a dhamma?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:37 pm

I would like to ask pardon to you titlbillings. Shame on me. :spy:
I have a mistake in my experiance, by confonding with satipatthana - the foundation of mindfulness.

It seems realy like foundation, stable, calm and free from body, feelings, mind, and mental events... Thats why this similies arise in my mind.

satipaṭṭhāna:
Foundation of mindfulness; frame of reference — body, feelings, mind, and mental events, viewed in and of themselves as they occur.

:embarassed: :toilet:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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