Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:31 pm

Yundi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And do you think such teachers as Mahasi Sayadaw or U Pandita are not in line with what the Pali sources teach?

Any teacher that defines sati is awareness in the sense of being cognizant or consciousness of an object is out of line with the Pali sources.
That does not answer the question. Also, is Ven Analayo, in his brilliant study of satipatthana out of line in his book, SATIPATTHANA, when he refers to the "bare attention" aspect of sati (p. 60)? And one of the points being that sati is inclusive of a number of functions that are not necessarily captured by a bare dictionary rendering, but must be looked at in the context of how the word is used. Out of line, is he? Out of line as are Mahasi Saydaw and U Pandita in their teachings? Bare attention is not necessarily translated by sati.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Yundi » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:17 am

I already offered the view that mindfulness is that mental function that keeps awareness 'bare'.

Awareness or consciousness is something naturally 'bare' or pure unless it is obscured by defilement.

(I trust you have read the Buddha's teaching on luminous mind in the Anguttara Ones.)

The skill of mindfulness is bringing to bear the object of meditation.

Instead of awareness bearing in mind naked dancing women, it has the skill to bear in mind the meditation object.

Thus the Buddha advised right mindfulness is awareness or contemplation of the four satipatthana rather than the four Spice Girls.

With metta

:smile:
Last edited by Yundi on Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:20 am

Yundi wrote:I already offered the view that mindfulness is that mental function that keeps awareness 'bare'.

Awareness or consciousness is something naturally 'bare' or pure until it is obscured by defilement.

(I trust you have read the Buddha's teaching on luminous mind in the Anguttara Ones.)

With metta
Okay.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Yundi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And do you think such teachers as Mahasi Sayadaw or U Pandita are not in line with what the Pali sources teach?

Any teacher that defines sati is awareness in the sense of being cognizant or consciousness of an object is out of line with the Pali sources.
That does not answer the question. Also, is Ven Analayo, in his brilliant study of satipatthana out of line in his book, SATIPATTHANA, when he refers to the "bare attention" aspect of sati (p. 60)? And one of the points being that sati is inclusive of a number of functions that are not necessarily captured by a bare dictionary rendering, but must be looked at in the context of how the word is used. Out of line, is he? Out of line are are Mahasi Saydaw and U Pandita in their teachings? Bare attention is not necessarily translated by sati.


Is it so outrageous to question certain teachings put forward by teachers, which seem to not quite be in line with the suttas. This in no way would cast any aspersions on those monks or there vinaya, but at some stage people have to decide whether they are taking refuge in a teacher (naughty naughty) or the Buddha (suttas/vinaya).

:smile:
Last edited by Brizzy on Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:46 am

Brizzy wrote:
Is it so outrage to question certain teachings put forward by teachers, which seem to not quite be in line with the suttas.
Who would I listen to? You? Or a monk of long standing, deep practice and study who can read the suttas in the original language?

Who determines what is line with the suttas? I have seen pretty wacky interpretations of the suttas out there, even on DhammaWheel. I have seen nothing out line with the suttas in the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw or U Pandita.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Is it so outrage to question certain teachings put forward by teachers, which seem to not quite be in line with the suttas.
Who would I listen to? You? Or a monk of long standing, deep practice and study who can read the suttas in the original language?

Who determine what is line with the suttas? I have seen pretty wacky interpretations of the suttas out there, even on DhammaWheel. I have seen out line with the suttas in the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw or U Pandita.


I would read and contemplate the suttas, then I would listen/read as many Dhamma teachers as you can. Then I would decide with my own discernment what was in line and what was'nt.

The Dalai Lama is probably the most well known and respected Buddhist in the world, but if what he teaches is the Buddha's Dhamma then I'm a monkeys uncle.

People are so ready to take refuge in other people, its scary.

I am an ardent fan of Thanissaro Bhikkhu, but I do not take refuge in him. If I found some of his teachings did not follow the suttas I would not get my knickers in a twist, but I would use my discernment and leave those to one side.

It seems it is an offense to actually use ones own wisdom in understanding the Buddha's teachings. Even the Buddha said he could not give people release, how more so with any other teacher. If someone is to reach final release it is through other peoples "good friendship" and there own wisdom.

BTW Being able to read the suttas in the original pali does not make one a better teacher (or worse).

:smile:
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:16 am

Brizzy wrote:
BTW Being able to read the suttas in the original pali does not make one a better teacher (or worse).
But then one who reads Pali would know one does not take refuge. This whole business of "taking" refuge in monks is a non sequitur. That is not what this thread is about.
Your nephew:
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:19 am

Tilt,
Was that an example of your new found sense of humor?
I must be missing something.
To whom were you referring?
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:22 am

alan wrote:To whom were you referring?
See Brizzy's msg immediately above mine, second para.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:35 am

Ok then. That was kind of funny. Glad to see you back in a good mood!
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
BTW Being able to read the suttas in the original pali does not make one a better teacher (or worse).
But then one who reads Pali would know one does not take refuge. This whole business of "taking" refuge in monks is a non sequitur. That is not what this thread is about.
Your nephew:


My nephew does not wear glasses. :ugeek:

:smile:
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:24 am

Brizzy wrote:
My nephew does not wear glasses.
It was the family resemblence I was going for.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:41 am

:toilet:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
My nephew does not wear glasses.
It was the family resemblence I was going for.


Actually now that you mention it, that monkey looks pretty cute and very wise.

:smile:
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:02 am

looks like george burns... so um kinda like god i guess
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Yundi » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:16 am

Brizzy wrote:Is it so outrageous to question certain teachings put forward by teachers, which seem to not quite be in line with the suttas.

Personally, I do not see the issue being one of conformity to the Pali. To me, the issue is one of instruction & method.

To practise 'awareness' is to practise 'staring', 'watching' or 'concentrating'.

Where as to practise mindfulness is to recollect the Dhamma, especially the Dhamma of abandoning craving & grasping.

So the differences between teachers is indicative of their own method of practice.

As I see it, the question is not one of scriptural interpretation. It is a question of practise & method.

With metta

:smile:
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:21 am

Yundi wrote:

To practise 'awareness' is to practise 'staring', 'watching' or 'concentrating'.
Though we are not at odds with the basic issue, it would seem, as for awareness, it depends upon how you define the word.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:23 am

jcsuperstar wrote:looks like george burns... so um kinda like god i guess
God died March 9, 1996.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:39 am

And may he rest in peace. Along with this thread.
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:54 am

alan wrote:And may he rest in peace. Along with this thread.
God or George Burns may be dead, but this thread lives on.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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