Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby fijiNut » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:15 am

I was wondering why nobody brought this up this direct contradiction:

from the interview http://www.tricycle.com/a-mindful-balance

Q: Does the Buddha ever mention the term manasikara in his mindfulness instructions?

A:Not that I know of. The term figures most prominently in Abhidhamma-based treatises on Buddhist psychology. In the Buddha’s practical instructions on both samatha (tranquility meditation) and vipassana (insight meditation), the terms sati and sampajanna appear most often.


And from the words of the Buddha's "How appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) leads to stream entry:" SN 22.122
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#stream
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Ben » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:12 pm

fijiNut wrote:I was wondering why nobody brought this up this direct contradiction:

from the interview http://www.tricycle.com/a-mindful-balance

Q: Does the Buddha ever mention the term manasikara in his mindfulness instructions?

A:Not that I know of. The term figures most prominently in Abhidhamma-based treatises on Buddhist psychology. In the Buddha’s practical instructions on both samatha (tranquility meditation) and vipassana (insight meditation), the terms sati and sampajanna appear most often.


And from the words of the Buddha's "How appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) leads to stream entry:" SN 22.122
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#stream


That doesn't surprise me, FijiNut, thanks for bringing it up.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:53 pm

Yundi wrote:Thus the Buddha advised right mindfulness is awareness or contemplation of the four satipatthana rather than the four Spice Girls.



The Spice Girls are in fact the esoteric fifth foundation of mindfulness :tongue:
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:09 pm

fijiNut wrote:I was wondering why nobody brought this up this direct contradiction:

from the interview http://www.tricycle.com/a-mindful-balance

Q: Does the Buddha ever mention the term manasikara in his mindfulness instructions?

A:Not that I know of. The term figures most prominently in Abhidhamma-based treatises on Buddhist psychology. In the Buddha’s practical instructions on both samatha (tranquility meditation) and vipassana (insight meditation), the terms sati and sampajanna appear most often.


And from the words of the Buddha's "How appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) leads to stream entry:" SN 22.122
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#stream

Wallace leaves something to be desired.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:06 am

Nice, fijiNut. But was the sutta you posted referring to mindfulness instructions?
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:09 am

alan wrote:Nice, fijiNut. But was the sutta you posted referring to mindfulness instructions?

Are you going to suggest that SN 22.122 doesn't?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:19 am

Not being virtuous myself, I'll have to leave that up to you.
Are these basic instructions about mindfulness?
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:46 am

alan wrote:Nice, fijiNut. But was the sutta you posted referring to mindfulness instructions?

Since it needs to be spelled out to you in obvious black and white:

There are things that are the basis for the enlightenment factor of mindfulness: frequently giving careful attention [yoiniso manasikara] to them is the nutrient for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfillment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness. - SN V 65 CDB 1569.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:05 am

Thanks tilt.
So the sutta fijiNut quoted: did it refer to basic mindfulness instructions?
The sutta you quoted: is it in that context?
Thanks for pointing things out in black and white. I do appreciate that.
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:11 am

alan wrote:Thanks tilt.
So the sutta fijiNut quoted: did it refer to basic mindfulness instructions?
The whole thing is there to be read.
The sutta you quoted: is it in that context?
It would seem so.


Interesting to see you working to keep this thread alive.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:32 am

Hi tilt,
I'm only working to understand.
Lock the thread now if it does not please you. You have that option.
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:35 am

alan wrote:Hi tilt,
I'm only working to understand.
Lock the thread now if it does not please you. You have that option.

Whether it pleases me or not has nothing to do with anything. Keep in on point, please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby alan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:50 am

Sure.
Just asking about the sutta you quoted. Context would be nice.
"It would seem so" might make sense to some, but please forgive my ignorance. I'm just learning. And you are the big expert. So for all of those reading who are still learning, would you please explain?
Thanks.
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:58 am

alan wrote:Sure.
Just asking about the sutta you quoted. Context would be nice.
"It would seem so" might make sense to some, but please forgive my ignorance. I'm just learning. And you are the big expert. So for all of those reading who are still learning, would you please explain?
Thanks.

The question is do I want to type out the text in detail? No. Other things to do, and it will not change the point that yoniso manasikara is used in context of helping establish mindfulness practice. If you have Ven Bodhi's translation, it is referenced easily enough for you. Right now I have some irregular verbs to learn.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:24 am

Interesting point about the sutta mentioned................

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html

........is that it states that this practice leads to jhana.

:smile:
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:03 pm

Brizzy wrote:Interesting point about the sutta mentioned................

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html

........is that it states that this practice leads to jhana.

Oh, no; how terrible.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Journey » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:04 pm

A Correspondence between B. Alan Wallace and the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi -
"The Nature of Mindfulness and Its Role in Buddhist Meditation"


http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Correspondence.pdf
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:27 pm

Journey wrote:A Correspondence between B. Alan Wallace and the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi -
"The Nature of Mindfulness and Its Role in Buddhist Meditation"


http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Correspondence.pdf

Thanks. That is worth looking at.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby Journey » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:48 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Journey wrote:A Correspondence between B. Alan Wallace and the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi -
"The Nature of Mindfulness and Its Role in Buddhist Meditation"


http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files/article/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Correspondence.pdf

Thanks. That is worth looking at.



Sure is.
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Re: Alan Wallace on Modern Vipassana

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:03 pm

Hi Journey,
Journey wrote:A Correspondence between B. Alan Wallace and the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi -
"The Nature of Mindfulness and Its Role in Buddhist Meditation"


http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files/article/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Correspondence.pdf

Thank you for posting that. It is very illuminating.

Best Wishes,
Mike
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