New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
As a matter of fact, perception [grounded in greed, hatred, and delusion] as such carries with it the notion of permanence, as we mentioned in an earlier sermon. To perceive is to grasp a sign. One can grasp a sign only where one imagines some degree of permanence.
Alot is being said about this. The basic quote is nanananda and the bracketed addition is by tiltbillings I think.

I'm wanting to be sure I understand. Is nanananda saying that all perception is grasping at signs and happens only when permanence is imagined while tiltbillings is saying that some perception is grounded in greed hatred, and delusion and this perception is grasping at signs and permanence is imagined while some perception is not grounded in greed, hatred, and delusion and so is not grasping at signs and permanence?
chownah
You ask an interesting question. Certainly, if perception grounded in the assumption of self, the likelihood is it going assume in some way permanence, which seems to go along with the idea of self. And here it is time to trot out for the millionth time one of my favorite texts:
      • ". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.
Now, the real question here is what is meant by perception. But without worrying too much about the technical meaning of perception and what Pali word is behind the English word, perception/seeing/hearing/etc in a context of a concentrated, mindful mind is less likely to get lost in the idea of self and permanence. As insight increases the less lost we get.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27858
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I don't think that what Ven. Ñāṇananda is saying about the nature of perception, in itself, has anything to do with any notions of self, greed, aversion or delusion
Ven. Ñāṇananda wrote:As a matter of fact, perception as such carries with it the notion of permanence, as we mentioned in an earlier sermon. To perceive is to grasp a sign. One can grasp a sign only where one imagines some degree of permanence.
The most simple formula for change is...

/\x = x2 - x1

Where x is the object, the numbers represent time periods, and delta represents change in x, the object.

To observe change, you need to observe this occurring... not the formula itself, but what it represents.

To observe change, you therefore need to have:

- an x, some object which you're observing change in
- a time interval, in which the object (x) is seen to have varied

Inherent in observing impermanence then is the object and time. Observing impermanence without either is non-sensical.

What the formula takes as "x", we could take as "a sign" (to use Nanananda's word)
We can take the initial establishment of the sign as the initial state of the object, as x1.
We can take the inevitable "turn[ed] otherwise", as x2.

The very taking of, or establishment of an "x", a "sign", a "dhamma", a "thing" or whatever, is an active mind-driven process. Hence,

Mind precedes all dhammas. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. (Dhp1)

So, we've made ourselves a dhamma. We've bracketed some component of sensory input and baselined it. Having held the "x" fixed over time as "x" is what is meant by "perception as such carries with it the notion of permanence... To perceive is to grasp a sign. One can grasp a sign only where one imagines some degree of permanence."

To observe /\x (i.e. the change in "x") is all well and good, but what we really need to be learning in order to remove avijja with respect to sankharas, is to see that we make/create/baseline/fabricate an "x" in the first place in order for it to be "x" at all, (in order for us to have something to observe change in), and what we're really watching is the "turning otherwise" of whatever "x" we ourselves arbitrarily defined.

As much people might like to gloss over this reality, we mentally abstracted this "x", in order to establish an "x1" baseline and to see reality deviate from it, enabling us to take a new snapshot of our "x" as "x2".

Apologies if that wasn't the best exposition - mathematics is not a strong point of mine, but it seems as good a way to cut through the terminology barriers as any.

In summary, the act of holding x as x over time is a cognitive distortion which we ourselves introduce. Watching the products of our cognitive distortion "rise" and "fall" to prove impermanence to ourselves is not going to achieve too much if we pretend that what we are watching is anything more than an a mentally-constructed cognitive distortion. That is all we're observing impermanence in... the arbitrarily constructed "x"'es we establish. That's how you see through dhammas... by actually knowing them for what they are.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

I don't think that what Ven. Ñāṇananda is saying about the nature of perception, in itself, has anything to do with any notions of self, greed, aversion or delusion
Ven. Ñāṇananda wrote:As a matter of fact, perception as such carries with it the notion of permanence, as we mentioned in an earlier sermon. To perceive is to grasp a sign. One can grasp a sign only where one imagines some degree of permanence.
It is interesting that textually that penetrating impermanence has a fair amount to do with the penetrating of anatta. And why would not greed, hatred, and delusion have anything to with perception carrying the sense of permanence?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27858
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And why would not greed, hatred, and delusion have anything to with perception carrying the sense of permanence?
Delusion has a lot to do with the initial establishment of the x if one is creating an x, oblivious to the fact they're doing it. Any perception an arahant would make however, would be done fully cognizant of the nature of perception and the entirely arbitrary nature of it. Hence, they cannot be fooled by it.
Phena Sutta wrote:"Now suppose that in the last month of the hot season a mirage were shimmering, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a mirage? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any perception that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in perception?
Greed and aversion have a lot to do with the suffering that arises due to an unwholesome reaction to the x - again, something an arahant would not do.

Your brothelization of Ven. Ñāṇananda's quote needlessly precluded an arahant from the ability to perceive any x, as well as obscuring the point of what was said.

Did you get what I was trying to communicate in the previous post about the very nature of impermanence or should I give up now?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And why would not greed, hatred, and delusion have anything to with perception carrying the sense of permanence?
Delusion has a lot to do with the initial establishment of the x if one is creating an x, oblivious to the fact they're doing it. Any perception an arahant would make however, would be done fully cognizant of the nature of perception and the entirely arbitrary nature of it. Hence, they cannot be fooled by it.

Greed and aversion have a lot to do with the suffering that arises due to an unwholesome reaction to the x - again, something an arahant would not do.

Your brothelization of Ven. Ñāṇananda's quote needlessly precluded an arahant from the ability to perceive any x.

Metta,
Retro. :)
An "x"? I have no idea what an "X" is. My "brothelization?" So you claim, but you have not shown. Also, let us see without the maths a reasoned argument that an arahant, who by definition is free of greed, hatred, and delusion, would be unable to perceive some sort of mysterious "x". I think rather than using "X" you should meaningfully plug in an actual experiential process that an arahant has to deal with. So, let us see a real argument for you claim here that my "brothelization" prevent an arahant from perceiving "any" something or other.

Quite frankly, what are you actually talking about here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27858
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:An "x"? I have no idea what an "X" is.
...
Quite frankly, what are you actually talking about here?
Clearly then you pay no attention to what I write, as it was well explained in the post immediately before.

Either that, or I am inept at communicating, or you are inept at understanding.

Either way, I am clearly wasting my time here.

Good day to you, sir.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:An "x"? I have no idea what an "X" is.
...
Quite frankly, what are you actually talking about here?
Clearly then you pay no attention to what I write, as it was well explained in the post immediately before.

Either that, or I am inept at communicating, or you are inept at understanding.

Either way, I am clearly wasting my time here.

Good day to you, sir.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Having just reread you "x' msg (it is a mess), I would opt for: you are unable to express your ideas in concise, lucid English, or unwilling to take the time to do so. On the other hand trying carefully and clearly express yourself, your ideas, is always worth the effort, even if the value is solely for yourself. You certainly have done considerably better in the past than what you have been doing in this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote: perception/seeing/hearing/etc in a context of a concentrated, mindful mind is less likely to get lost in the idea of self and permanence. As insight increases the less lost we get.
retrofuturist wrote: Any perception arahant would make however, would be done fully cognizant of the nature of perception and the entirely arbitrary nature of it. Hence, they cannot be fooled by it.
Seems like both quotes are saying that all perceptions are deceptive and that this deception can be discerned with insight. So, if I am correct that they are pretty much saying the same thing, then what is the point of discussion?
chownah
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27858
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Having just reread you "x' msg (it is a mess), I would opt for: you are unable to express your ideas in concise, lucid English, or unwilling to take the time to do so. On the other hand trying carefully and clearly express yourself, your ideas, is always worth the effort, even if the value is solely for yourself. You certainly have done considerably better in the past than what you have been doing in this thread.
I have tried to explain by recourse to the words of venerable Nanananda - you and Mike cannot understand me.
I have tried to explain by recourse to the words of the Buddha - you and Mike cannot understand me.
I have tried to explain by recourse to my own words - you and Mike cannot understand me.
I have tried to explain by recourse to combinations of the above - you and Mike cannot understand me.
I have tried to explain by recourse to other methods, such as algebra, trying to find different ways to explain things in the way you and Mike might understand - yet, you and Mike cannot understand me.

This has gone on this way for several years now, has it not?

At what point may I stop carrying the burden for your not-knowingness?

Clearly there is something which makes it near on impossible for you and Mike to comprehend what I'm saying and I feel I have carried the burden for your not-knowingness for long enough.

Can we just please let it be at that? I am satisfied with what I know and how it has been explained, so I'm sure we all have better things to do than play the same tired roles in the same tired old mode of correspondence.

Thank you for your efforts. Unless I can see any reason for it to be otherwise, I am done with it and will leave you both to your ways.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: perception/seeing/hearing/etc in a context of a concentrated, mindful mind is less likely to get lost in the idea of self and permanence. As insight increases the less lost we get.
retrofuturist wrote: Any perception arahant would make however, would be done fully cognizant of the nature of perception and the entirely arbitrary nature of it. Hence, they cannot be fooled by it.
Seems like both quotes are saying that all perceptions are deceptive and that this deception can be discerned with insight. So, if I am correct that they are pretty much saying the same thing, then what is the point of discussion?
There is only one response to your question:
        • Damdifino.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: . . .

Clearly there is something which makes it near on impossible for you and Mike to comprehend what I'm saying . . .
And you have no role whatsoever to play in that?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19948
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: Can we just please let it be at that? I am satisfied with what I know and how it has been explained, so I'm sure we all have better things to do than play the same tired roles in the same tired old mode of correspondence.
I'm sorry you feel that way. On both this thread and What is a dhamma, according to the Sutta & Vinaya Pitakas? I've been playing by your rules of avoiding commentary from those pesky Theravada interpreters and meditation teachers. I actually put quite a lot of effort into providing sutta quotes relevant the various issues raised on these two threads, particularly here. You seemed to not take seriously sutta quotations that did not suit your viewpoint, such as those stating that the Noble Path is fabricated or that the Blessed one apparently perceived.

I'm afraid it's hard to figure out what mode of correspondence you would find more useful. I'm sorry that my efforts have not been up to scratch.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
cobwith
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:52 pm
Contact:

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by cobwith »

retrofuturist wrote: To understand paticcasamuppada (and thus the Dhamma), I believe it is imperative to understand and observe the structural primacy of manasikara and mano in the creation of all things. Any view or practice that obscures this, or ignorantly diminishes it as philosophical papanca, sets us on the path away from nibbāna.
And Vitakka vicārā as well!

The following are (mostly) definitions from the PTS:

Mana sikaroti
---------------------------

(ref: Mano)
manasi-karoti - to fix the mind intently, to bear in mind, take to heart, ponder, think upon, consider, recognise.

Manasikara = attention, pondering, fixed thought.
(ref: Descartes Meditations > Attention as the "maker of things".)

"yoniso manasikara" = fixing one's attention with a purpose or thoroughly," (yoni = origin, way of birth, place of birth)


COMPARED TO


Vitakka vicārā
--------------------------

vi + takka - reflection, thought, thinking ; "initial application"
vi + cara - investigation, examination, consideration, deliberation.

Takka= [Sankrit. tarka doubt ; science of logic (lit. " turning & twisting")
Cara = [fr. car carati to move about] motion, action, process.

vitakka the characteristic of fixity & steadiness,
vicara the characteristic of movement & display

vitakka is often combination with vicara or "initial & sustained application"

////////
Rhys Davids:
"to denote the whole of the mental process of thinking (viz. fixing one's attention and reasoning out)"
"vitakka is the directing of concomitant properties towards the object ; vicara is the continued exercise of the mind on that object."
////////

Both are properties of the first jhana (called sa-vitakka sa-vicara) but are discarded in the second jhana

Note. Looking at the combination vitakka + vicara in earlier and later works one comes to the conclusion that they were once used to denote one & the same thing : just thought, thinking, only in an emphatic way (as they are also semantically synonymous) , and that one has to take them as one expression, like janati passati, without being able to state their difference. With the advance in the Sangha of intensive study of terminology they became distinguished mutually. Vitakka became the inception of mind, or attending, and was no longer applied, as in the Suttas, to thinking in general.

____________________

There is the perceived, the perceiver and the perception (reverse order.)
There is the thing felt, the one who feels, and the feeling. (reverse order.)
There is the thing thought, the thinker and the Thought (reverse order.)

The puthujjana must position himself in the Sankhara khandha and perceive his perception, feel her feeling and think his thought.
He must discriminate between perception, feeling, thought, and breath. He must reflect on the arising, remaining and cessation of each.

"Ānanda, remember this too as a wonderful and marvelous quality of the Tathāgata: Here, Ānanda, for the Tathāgata feelings are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; perceptions are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; thoughts are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear. Remember this too, Ānanda, as a wonderful and marvelous quality of the Tathāgata.” MN123

As far as Thinking is concerned, this is the most difficult to realize.
For there are these two type of thinking indeed (Vitakkavicārā & Manasikāra).

The thinking that occurs in NamaRupa (a willfull and intended thinking) that create things.
And a thinking in Sankhara khandha, that first lays down it's potential doubt on the ground of the actual "reality"; then reflect that thinking back to it.
Should we always compare both type of "thinking".

Is "NOT THINKING" (avitakkavicārā) in Sankhara Khandha a key to the disappearance of Dukkha?
More easily said than done.
Last edited by cobwith on Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sā me dhammamadesesi,
khandhāyatanadhātuyo
Thig 5.8
User avatar
equilibrium
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by equilibrium »

retrofuturist wrote: Unless I can see any reason for it to be otherwise, I am done with it and will leave you both to your ways.
Clear yes, the reason is to experience Nibbana, the very reason that the Buddha taught so that we can escape samsara. But there is only ONE problem.....we all have to REMOVE that part in RED!
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4037
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: New work on Paticcasamuppada by Ven. Ñāṇananda

Post by Alex123 »

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: ‘manopubbaṇgamādhammāmanoseṭṭhāmanomayā
I take it to mean that kusala/akusala and mental dukkha/sukha follows from the mind, not the body. Dhamma here can refer to the dhamma section in satipaṭṭhāna.

Reading the suttas, they do seem to affirm the existence of rūpa outside of the mind. Especially in the case of asaññasatta beings.
Post Reply