Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Those who are interested in gaining liberation from samsāra will practice with able meditation teachers, without even considering whether they are monks, nuns, or lay people. My first teacher was John Coleman, who worked for the CIA in Burma, and later became a meditation teacher in the U Ba Khin tradition. Another of my early teachers was Mrs Ruth Denissen who introduced me to the practice of walking meditation.

As you know, many, if not most ordained bhikkhus are spending their time for rituals and ceremonies, while only a minority are actually practising or teaching meditation. What is so special about 227 precepts or 311 precepts? What matters is spiritual development. Goenka, Thich Hnat Hanh, Jack Kornfield, Christopher Titmus, Ajahn Sundarā, Ajahn Candasiri, Daw Ariyañāni, and many others are spreading the Dhamma quite well without being fully ordained.

If you want to follow the spiritual path as a bhikkhuni, then do it, don't just talk about it, and don't get side-tracked into political issues — it is not the Noble Eightfold Path.
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cooran
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by cooran »

Well said, Bhante! Thank you.

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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by alan »

Ayya Khema.
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DNS
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by DNS »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: If you want to follow the spiritual path as a bhikkhuni, then do it, don't just talk about it, and don't get side-tracked into political issues — it is not the Noble Eightfold Path.
True, but neither is it practicing the Noble Eightfold Path by pursuing political efforts to stop women from becoming bhikkhunis (not saying you are doing that, just talking in general about some monks and lay people who try to stop women from full ordinations).
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Cittasanto »

Why exactly was he stopped giving his address?

Edit -
After reading this thread it is strange that some consider the original incarnation of the siladhara - which to my knowledge were Samaneri under a different name - as not part of the Original Buddhist Tradition. They follow both the Dhamma and vinaya set up by the Buddha, and even if they don't follow all those of the Bhikkhuni, should Sikkhamana and Samaneri also not be considered part of the tradition? But to that matter, what about the other traditions which have different rules for mendicants, or those who follow the eight lifelong precepts which is the sila aspect of the threefold training of the eightfold path and found nowhere in the canon as precepts in and of themselves.
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by DNS »

Sikkhamānā and samaneri are part of the Buddhist tradition. So are fully ordained bhikkhus and fully ordained bhikkhunis. It is up to each person to decide how they want to practice, be it as a lay man, lay woman, sikkhamānā, samaneri, bhikkhu or bhikkhuni.
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Sokehi »

I have to admit that my knowledge about all aspects is truly not sufficient for a final elaborate "view" that is absolutely pure so to speak. This is not meant to sound sarcastic - I really know I am of little insight in all the vinaya aspects and cultural aspects and preoccupations. But still I hold the belief that these discussions are worldly and conditioned matters... so far so good. But if they prevent people of a certain gender from following their aspirations it can't be righteous or pure.

I wonder sometimes - being male myself - what would other males here think about it if the situation would be otherwise? The bhikkhus lineage died out, only bhikkhunis around... I just use this thought to reflect on the situation of dedicated upasikas wanting to ordain. Men are very fortunate, having the possibility to ordain within their own nation, not to have to travel far. Everything is pleasantly available. Sometimes I have the feeling that compassion towards the situation of the female practitioners is very low here I have to admit. They are accused to follow political issues - just by having a spiritual longing like other males here have too, some having had the good fortune to ordain themselves - some still having the chance to do so in the future.

Compassion should not stop or begin at following views. At least we should feel sorry for the womens situations, but this compassion is expressed here very rarely if at all.

Please forgive me for sounding disrespectful sometimes, I'm still learning and I know I still have to do much more in the right speech department :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Cittasanto
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Cittasanto »

Sokehi wrote:I have to admit that my knowledge about all aspects is truly not sufficient for a final elaborate "view" that is absolutely pure so to speak. This is not meant to sound sarcastic - I really know I am of little insight in all the vinaya aspects and cultural aspects and preoccupations. But still I hold the belief that these discussions are worldly and conditioned matters... so far so good. But if they prevent people of a certain gender from following their aspirations it can't be righteous or pure.

I wonder sometimes - being male myself - what would other males here think about it if the situation would be otherwise? The bhikkhus lineage died out, only bhikkhunis around... I just use this thought to reflect on the situation of dedicated upasikas wanting to ordain. Men are very fortunate, having the possibility to ordain within their own nation, not to have to travel far. Everything is pleasantly available. Sometimes I have the feeling that compassion towards the situation of the female practitioners is very low here I have to admit. They are accused to follow political issues - just by having a spiritual longing like other males here have too, some having had the good fortune to ordain themselves - some still having the chance to do so in the future.

Compassion should not stop or begin at following views. At least we should feel sorry for the womens situations, but this compassion is expressed here very rarely if at all.

Please forgive me for sounding disrespectful sometimes, I'm still learning and I know I still have to do much more in the right speech department :anjali:
I wonder sometimes the same! and then I think of the likes of those who seek to open avenues and look for solutions. Would I want to be a controversy or an example?

The only people worth feeling sorry for, are those who feel entitled to something!
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Sokehi
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Sokehi »

Cittasanto wrote:
Sokehi wrote:I have to admit that my knowledge about all aspects is truly not sufficient for a final elaborate "view" that is absolutely pure so to speak. This is not meant to sound sarcastic - I really know I am of little insight in all the vinaya aspects and cultural aspects and preoccupations. But still I hold the belief that these discussions are worldly and conditioned matters... so far so good. But if they prevent people of a certain gender from following their aspirations it can't be righteous or pure.

I wonder sometimes - being male myself - what would other males here think about it if the situation would be otherwise? The bhikkhus lineage died out, only bhikkhunis around... I just use this thought to reflect on the situation of dedicated upasikas wanting to ordain. Men are very fortunate, having the possibility to ordain within their own nation, not to have to travel far. Everything is pleasantly available. Sometimes I have the feeling that compassion towards the situation of the female practitioners is very low here I have to admit. They are accused to follow political issues - just by having a spiritual longing like other males here have too, some having had the good fortune to ordain themselves - some still having the chance to do so in the future.

Compassion should not stop or begin at following views. At least we should feel sorry for the womens situations, but this compassion is expressed here very rarely if at all.

Please forgive me for sounding disrespectful sometimes, I'm still learning and I know I still have to do much more in the right speech department :anjali:
I wonder sometimes the same! and then I think of the likes of those who seek to open avenues and look for solutions. Would I want to be a controversy or an example?
Solutions will not be found if everyone remains quiet. With regards to this I'm not wondering at all. Even at the times of the Buddha the laity complained and adressed issues. That's in my eyes a duty.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Cittasanto »

Sokehi wrote: Solutions will not be found if everyone remains quiet. With regards to this I'm not wondering at all. Even at the times of the Buddha the laity complained and adressed issues. That's in my eyes a duty.
Hi,
I had added to what I had said but it is of no matter to what you replied to nothing was changed only added. :)

Who is remaining quiet? Why was Ajahn Brahm's address not given? Is it because of a supposed status quo or other reason?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Paribbajaka
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Paribbajaka »

Cittasanto wrote: The only people worth feeling sorry for, are those who feel entitled to something!
That's funny, because I feel sorry for people who don't see that everyone is entitled to equal treatment.

The Buddha ordained Bhikkhunis. The instructions he left for ordaining more can no longer be used, and I personally feel this is being used as an excuse to perpetuate sexism inherited from the Southeast Asian host cultures in to Theravada. This is not an "entitlement" issue, it's a human rights and self-determination issue.
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by culaavuso »

Paribbajaka wrote:The instructions he left for ordaining more can no longer be used
[url=http://awakeningtruth.org/images/pdf/ven-analayo/LegalitywithTranslations.pdf]The Legality of Bhikkhunī Ordination[/url] by Ven. Bhikkhu Anālayo wrote: From this it follows that the higher ordination carried out at Bodhgayā fulfils the legal requirements of the Theravāda Vinaya.
...
The combination of higher ordinations adopted for the 1998 Bodhgayā procedure is legally correct. The order of bhikkhunīs has been revived. It stands on firm legal foundations and has a right to claim recognition as a Theravāda order of bhikkhunīs.
About Santi Forest Monastery wrote: Santi Forest Monastery is a Buddhist Nuns’ Monastery with facilities for people to visit, study and practice the teachings of the Buddha.
...
Since 2005, the Sangha of Santi has performed ordinations
...
Vinaya contains the famous pāṭimokkha list of rules, 227 for bhikkhus, 311 for bhikkhunis in the Pali version. These rules structure important aspects of monastic life, such as celibacy, wearing robes, not using money, use of food, and so on. Such rules are strictly emphasized in the Forest Tradition, and monastics at Santi are expected to follow these rules.
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by chownah »

Does the paper have anything new or different to say? If there is something new then would someone bring an excerpt showing it......if there is nothing new then don't bother.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Ceisiwr »

Why not just ordain women again

I don't think the world will end, or the Dhamma will be lost, if they just allow male monks to ordain the first few nuns.


It comes accross as clinging to rites and rituals to me


No doubt that if the nuns lineage had died out when Buddha was alive, he would just simply restart it by male ordination of female nuns.


I've never had an answer as to why it would be so damaging and catastrophic to just ordain women again?
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Mr Man
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Mr Man »

clw_uk wrote:Why not just ordain women again
Isn't this happening already.
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